Oversensitive people shouldn’t indulge in creative media, ever

OH GOD, NO, RIN

Rin’s look of disgust.

Get your hands off her!

Shin­ji being a sicko.

AW, HELL YEAH!

The jus­tice served by Lancer (and more).

Fuck ANN

This was from an ANN review of episode 19 of Fate/stay night Unlim­it­ed Blade Works, and no, I’m not going to link to it. If you real­ly want to read that review, look it up your­self, although I sug­gest not to. I’m not help­ing these clowns get rev­enue by link­ing to them on my blog.

What, so basi­cal­ly “bad guys should­n’t do bad things because bad things are bad”? Shin­ji, who is clear­ly a sicko and desires Rin, should have baked her a batch of cook­ies instead?

Oh, please. Get out of your damned spe­cial lit­tle bub­ble. Writ­ers should­n’t have to dumb down their works just because aspects of it offends you. Why are peo­ple like you even in the enter­tain­ment indus­try, or in any posi­tion to “pro­fes­sion­al­ly” cri­tique it? By all regards, we should have noth­ing but sto­ries of peo­ple shak­ing hands and get­ting along. As much as I like Non Non Biy­ori and Kiniro Mosa­ic, it’d be a bor­ing indus­try if every show was like those.

Tit­il­late the male audi­ence?” What? I was cheer­ing for Lancer when he punched Shin­ji in the face. The scene was dis­turb­ing and I did­n’t want Rin to expe­ri­ence Shin­ji’s grimy hands on her, or more. I mean, there might be some sick­fucks out there (like Shin­ji) that get off on that crap, but there are sick­fucks that get off on mur­der too, which the Fate series has a lot of. And why leave out les­bians in your gen­er­al­iza­tion? In fact, why com­plain at all? SOMEONE WAS FORCED TO COMMIT SUICIDE IN THIS ANIME, but you choose this par­tic­u­lar issue to soap­box… Why, because it “trig­gers” you? Does it only mat­ter when it hap­pens to a woman? Oh, fuck off. Every time I see soap­box par­take-for-an-agen­da crap like this, I seethe.

Brace your­self:

I know this post esca­lat­ed pret­ty quick­ly, but hon­est­ly, I’m com­plete­ly tired of being sur­round­ed by this kind of crap.

It doesn't matter as long as you're cute!

34 thoughts on “Oversensitive people shouldn’t indulge in creative media, ever

  1. Sure, but let’s just not go over­board and try to equate Fate/Stay Night with “cre­ativ­i­ty”. It’s just schlock enter­tain­ment that we love.

    1. El Goopo: Fate/stay night, and the entire Nasu­verse for that mat­ter, is cre­ativ­i­ty for the writer, Nasu, regard­less if you think it’s “cheap” or not (that fic­tion­al uni­verse would­n’t be that detailed or ever-expand­ing if he felt it was cheap). And for all intents and pur­pos­es, writ­ers can write what­ev­er they want.
      To say oth­er­wise is talk­ing down on the var­i­ous dou­jin cir­cles and even anime/manga in gen­er­al that enjoy what they “cre­ate”. Cre­ate. Creativity.

  2. This is pret­ty much exact­ly how I’ve felt for a while. It’s all frus­trat­ing on var­i­ous lev­els, espe­cial­ly since the large (or at least vocal) major­i­ty are this way. I can’t even express how I feel with­out peo­ple think­ing I’m being defen­sive or dramatic.

    1. @Firi­on: It’s espe­cial­ly infu­ri­at­ing when peo­ple start putting words in your mouth and skirt around your points. It’s like talk­ing to a brick wall… a brick wall with self-entitlement.

  3. I imag­ine Rin did­n’t react because: she had no way out of it and she did­n’t want to give him the sat­is­fac­tion of a reac­tion (rap­ers like that) 

    Not that the per­son who wrote that will read this…

    I agree with you about the dou­ble stan­dard and hypocrisy when it comes to violance and rape.

    The last part not so much.
    it is true that we can write what­ev­er we please, but it also true that this writ­ings are in many ways a reflex­tion of how we see things, if most media depics vio­lence againts females and to a less­er degree males there is a rea­son bihind it, your exam­ples of male abuse are true but there are few com­pare to agres­sion againts females.

    Free has a groupe of shirt­less male teenagers who pro­vide the audi­ence with fanser­vice, but there is a vast dif­fer­enece between how this boys are sexy and how females are, they, unlike ani­me women, do not have a body that is impos­si­ble no mat­ter how much you train to optain , there is also no one moment where they are put into sub­mi­tion or oth­er­wise humi­lat­ing sit­u­a­tions to arouse the audience.

    Same for the Otome genre, the guys that the main female char­ac­ter inter­acts with for the most part won’t be the ones get­ting dominated.

    Media does influ­ence their audi­ences whether we want it or not, that is why those fem­i­nist think like that.

    I am not famil­iar with Bay­o­nette, I am with oth­er games and there is, again, a clear dif­fer­ence between the treat­ment males and females receive, males don’t have sex­ulized desings and out­fits just because, males don’t have the cam­era or their chest and butts just because, I don’t mind sex­u­al­i­sa­tion so much, what I do mind, and ful­ly agree with those who com­plain about it, is the lack of equal­i­ty, either you treat men like that as well or you don’t with any­one, that is my policy.

    1. @hens­light: That’s exact­ly why she did­n’t give a reac­tion. Rin is a strong girl.
      To be hon­est, I’ve seen about an equal amount of vio­lence between males and females in the media (in video games, vast­ly more male vio­lence — espe­cial­ly in west­ern video games where you’ll prob­a­bly end up mur­der­ing a bunch of male mooks in a shoot-out). If a man punch­es a man, peo­ple will view that as mas­cu­line. If a man punch­es a woman, peo­ple will see that as abu­sive. We should also con­sid­er the con­text in which the writer actu­al­ly adds these vio­lent plot aspects. If it’s rape, is the rape being cel­e­brat­ed, or is it there to high­light how hor­ri­ble the assailant is as a human being? This does­n’t mean the writer thinks it’s right to rape women, in fact, that’s the oppo­site. Same for child abuse, tor­ture, etc.
      In terms of media in gen­er­al, there is no fac­tu­al evi­dence to con­clude that they are the cause of boys becom­ing rapists or vio­lent towards women. If that was true, I would imag­ine a large num­ber of the human pop­u­la­tion that have access to mul­ti­me­dia would be. Includ­ing a num­ber of vio­lent acts depict­ed on fic­tion­al tele­vi­sion. I’m not deny­ing that games like first-per­son shoot­ers, for exam­ple, could influ­ence par­tic­u­lar cas­es of school shoot­ings, but it’s not true all the time and caus­es of influ­ence could apply to almost anything.
      And in terms of sex­u­al­iza­tion, I can’t say with 100% cer­tain­ty on whether or not male or females are sex­u­al­ized more than the oth­er because male fanser­vice goes over my head for the most part (and I don’t touch things like shounen-ai or otome games) because I’m straight, but I have not seen any­thing that keeps females from writing/drawing their sexy men, butts and all.
      I have indeed played video games and watched ani­me with ter­ri­ble help­less female char­ac­ters. But I’ve also played games and watched ani­me with fan­tas­tic and strong female char­ac­ters. Even Japan, which is often tar­get­ed for being sex­ist as hell in their fic­tion, man­ages to have their share of great female game char­ac­ters, often in their RPGs. Drag-On Dra­goon 3/Drakengard 3 has Zero, the female pro­tag­o­nist who utter­ly dom­i­nates her male harem, and the moment the local­iza­tion came out here, so-called fem­i­nists and sjwar­riors from Tum­blr start­ed accus­ing the game of being sex­ist to women for por­tray­ing the pro­tag­o­nist as “slut­ty” and also show­cas­ing themes that offend­ed them… For the most part, it seems like peo­ple are just look­ing for things to start a riot for the sake of it because video games and the like are pop­u­lar, but aren’t inter­est­ed in the hob­by itself at all. There was a recent Bat­man com­ic cov­er that was forced to be cen­sored because the Jok­er was being a dan­ger to Bat­girl. He’s… the Joker.
      I don’t see any­thing stop­ping a female writer from writ­ing what­ev­er she wants, or any­thing stop­ping a female artist from draw­ing what­ev­er she wants. I’m not going to claim women don’t have their own set of prob­lems to deal with even in mod­ern times, but as a per­son who actu­al­ly does care about women being treat­ed equal­ly, the peo­ple who com­plain about “trig­gers” either do not actu­al­ly care about the big­ger prob­lems at hand or have their pri­or­i­ties set back­wards. “Fac­tu­al fem­i­nists” I don’t have a prob­lem with, since they’re the ones call­ing the ones above to begin with and at least make sense to me.

  4. I haven’t seen F/SN (yet — I kind of want to play the VN) but I’ve been think­ing about this sort of thing for a while, par­tic­u­lar­ly with the con­tro­ver­sy over the recent Game of Thrones episode (which, full dis­clo­sure, I also haven’t seen).

    I think it’s a lit­tle sil­ly for crit­ics to say that we can’t depict bad things hap­pen­ing, which is effec­tive­ly what these peo­ple are argu­ing. Sure, there are ways of depict­ing such things that are “bet­ter” or “worse” than oth­ers, but regard­ing the point the review­er you quot­ed makes about the sit­u­a­tion being “tit­il­lat­ing” to the audi­ence — con­sid­er that, per­haps, that was actu­al­ly the inten­tion? But extend that thought a moment: how would some­one who felt tit­il­lat­ed by that scene feel after that? Guilty or a bit weird, prob­a­bly; I know I would. That reac­tion is actu­al­ly a very effec­tive manip­u­la­tion of the audi­ence’s emotions.

    These crit­ics need to remem­ber that 1) depict­ing some­thing is not the same as endors­ing it, that 2) peo­ple who do feel a sense of fas­ci­na­tion, arousal or tit­il­la­tion from such scenes are prob­a­bly (hope­ful­ly!) doing so out of pri­mal, uncon­trol­lable instincts rather than a gen­uine desire to see some­one else suf­fer; the thing that is often missed is that said tit­il­la­tion is often fol­lowed by an attack of the con­science… and 3) just because some­one enjoys some­thing in enter­tain­ment does not mean that they want to go out and do it in the real world. In fact, enter­tain­ment offers a safe means of explor­ing even your deep­est, dark­est fan­tasies with­out hurt­ing any­one; sure­ly a more desir­able out­come than going out into the world and doing some­thing unpleas­ant and/or illegal.

    You’re right that over­sen­si­tive peo­ple should con­sid­er their involve­ment in cre­ative media, but so long as peo­ple are still around to call them on their bull­shit, I think things will be just fine. 🙂

    1. @AstralFirelll: Great points. I agree, peo­ple need to real­ize the fine line between real­i­ty and fic­tion. Sto­ry­tellers think about what they’re writ­ing, not the oth­er way around. I sup­pose it is a bright side that there are peo­ple who are will­ing to call out folks like the ANN “review­er”.
      Also, yeah, I rec­om­mend read­ing the VN, although the art looks a bit out­dat­ed (the Tsuk­i­hime remake is look­ing great as far as pre­views of the sprites go, and it’s a shame they don’t just update the Fate graph­ics after all of these ports).

  5. That is true, thought I was refer­ing to vio­lence of a sex­u­al nature, my bad.

    Indeed, it is not that they beleive the writ­ers to be clos­et rap­ers, as you say a rape may be includ­ed because it has a rea­son to be includ­ed, the prob­lem is that many times…it does­n’t, it is includ­ed sim­ply for shock val­ue, and the one who gets rape rarely is not a female.

    Do you watch GOT? if you do you’ll know about a cer­tain recent scan­dal wich serves as the per­fect example.

    there is no fac­tu­al evi­dence to con­clude that they are the cause of boys becom­ing rapists or vio­lent towards women.”
    that is true, it won’t make you into a rap­er, what it will do though, is if media insists on most­ly show­ing just women being rape just for the sake of it is con­tribute to what is called rape culture.

    I can’t say with 100% cer­tain­ty on whether or not male or females are sex­u­al­ized more than the oth­er because male fanser­vice goes over my head for the most part”
    I have an easy way to proove this, the fig­ures, here is Sonico:
    http://image.rakuten.co.jp/amiami/cabinet/images/2012/45/fig-moe-7630.jpg?_ex=60x60
    She is tight­ed up, she is wear­ing lit­tle clothes, she is is show­ing her panties, she has an inno­cent look…search for male ones, actu­al­ly don’t, there is none, in fact there was no erot­ic male fig­ures since before Togainu no Chi (a BL game) and Free were made, but nei­ther char­ac­ters are depict­ed this way, on the oth­er hand you can find mil­lions of female fig­ures just like this one, and much worse…

    I’m not straight but enjoy any romance no mat­ter the gen­der or sex­u­al­i­ty so I am famil­iar with both, yaoi has huge, giantic prob­lems trust me, some of this involves rape and dou­ble stan­dards as well, I could tell you more but it would dif­fer from the sub­ject and I’m not sure you want to hear about it anyway 😛

    As for the Otome genre, yep, that has it’s issues also,it has to do with weak females and strong males (not refring just to phisi­cal strenght) as well, but same, I won’t go into detail so not to dif­fer much.

    True again, there may be few but we are thank­ful that such works that want to make a dif­fer­ence are being made.

    yes I saw that cov­er, a disgut­ing char­ac­ter doing some­thing dis­gust­ing to a hero­ine, just like Shinji…what a sor­prise (this is sarcams)

    I don’t see any­thing stop­ping a female writer from writ­ing what­ev­er she wants”
    that is fine, but the goal is to have male writ­ers help too.

    it would depend on what trig­ger we refer to…sometimes I think it jus­ti­fies a neg­a­tive reac­tion, oth­ers like here it does­n’t and I call it com­plain­ing for comaplain­ing, that is fuck­ing Shin­ji there, he kills and feels no remorse about it, we had known he feels lust for Rin since the begin­ning, he has her right there in front of him, all to his mercy…and you get sor­prise he would attempt a sex­u­al assault? ‑_-

    I for­got to ask, what were you refer­ing to with “the les­bians”? Cast­er and Saber? or other?

    1. @hens­light: — I’ll agree to dis­agree on some points, since our per­son­al expe­ri­ences dif­fer in regards to male fanser­vice. Although I don’t make it a point to search for otome series, BL man­ga and yaoi hen­tai, I have have seen noticed a decent num­ber of those titles on sea­son charts before or on data­bas­es and am very famil­iar with how big the otome game/fujoshi mar­ket is. This is pure­ly anec­do­tal, but in mid­dle school or high school, par­ents acci­den­tal­ly bought a BL ani­me DVD called “Sukiyo!” for me as a present because they knew I liked Japan­ese car­toons (the char­ac­ters looked very fem­i­nine and the cov­er was inno­cent enough) and I take it that was as “moe” to a female audi­ence as it could have to been to a male audi­ence if the char­ac­ters were girls. I can’t exact­ly say for cer­tain, but that’s just what I’ve inferred. As for otome games, I have not yet par­tak­en in play­ing one but if a num­ber of shou­jo and jou­sei I’ve read are any indi­ca­tion, I don’t doubt that hol­low female pro­tag­o­nists exist. But I think male pro­tag­o­nists have their own “prob­lems” too, such as being too inde­ci­sive, or in the case of series like Aki-Sora where the MC is moe-bait shou­ta, their per­son­al­i­ty traits can over­lap with what fem­i­nists gen­er­al­ly con­sid­er frag­ile in “gener­ic” female char­ac­ters who are shy. I per­son­al­ly think it’s an issue with mediocre writ­ers rather than a huge move­ment to put women down.
      — It’d be nice for males to cre­ate some­thing that specif­i­cal­ly caters to a female audi­ence. Hap­pens once in the blue moon, but usu­al­ly it’s the oth­er way around. Again, though, that is free will. Inter­est­ing­ly enough, Fate/stay night was orig­i­nal­ly going to have a female pro­tag­o­nist and a male king Arthur, as seen in Pro­to­type. In fact, I’m pret­ty sure Nasu him­self pre­ferred it that way.
      — The sjwar­riors that coined the unnec­es­sary con­cept of “trig­ger warn­ings” just want­ed an excuse to get rid of things they don’t like in class­rooms, media, and such under the guise of being “trau­ma­tized”. Which is essen­tial­ly BS, for exam­ple I’ve seen a video of a fem­i­nist con­fer­ence where males clap­ping could be con­sid­ered a trig­ger for them. There are cas­es of psy­cho­log­i­cal trau­ma, such as sur­vivor’s guilt or a lot of tur­moil war vet­er­ans suf­fer, but it’s a lot more com­pli­cat­ed than these folks let on. In fact, peo­ple who are eas­i­ly offend­ed should­n’t even be brows­ing the inter­net imo
      — lol By les­bians, I meant the fact that when review­ers like these want to demo­nize males, they always con­ve­nient­ly for­get about the les­bian audi­ence as well. Why are the males the only ones that get “tit­il­lat­ed”? It gives me the impres­sion that they only acknowl­edge homo­sex­u­al­i­ty when it is con­ve­nient for them.

  6. @Mikoto: that’s a cop out and you know it. By those stan­dards the rants these peo­ple are writ­ing are cre­ative media too, and they should be per­fect­ly free to write them with­out some­one get­ting over­ly sen­si­tive about them in turn.

    1. @El Goopo: — There’s an obvi­ous dif­fer­ence between “cre­ative writ­ing” such as writ­ing a fic­tion­al sto­ry and writ­ing to review a fic­tion­al sto­ry, i.e. “jour­nal­ism”. It should be expect­ed for a “pro­fes­sion­al” review­er not to com­plain about vil­lain­ous char­ac­ters doing vil­lain­ous things. Lit­er­al­ly sto­ry­telling 101.
      If Nasu was mak­ing a state­ment about rap­ing females being a good thing, then it’s rea­son­able for them to crit­i­cize it on a the­mat­ic basis, but this rapist gets kar­ma in every sto­ry­line of Fate/stay night and is out­right hat­ed by most of the audi­ence and cast.
      — To say the Naus­verse isn’t cre­ative writ­ing when the writer thought about the con­sis­tent in-and-outs about how his fic­tion­al world, char­ac­ters, and his­to­ry worked more than oth­er works of fic­tion is just a tad bit sil­ly, I’d say. It was also orig­i­nal­ly a Japan­ese text-based nov­el lit­tered with Nasu’s unique use of lan­guage and depen­dent on first-per­son nar­ra­tion before it was ever an ani­me, which peo­ple just love to treat as cheap throw­away animation…

  7. I have to admit that while I ignore this dra­ma for the fact that all the dra­ma can drain one’s ener­gy, but I have to admit that it’s very irri­tat­ing, espe­cial­ly for some­one who just want to enjoy media. Sure, I’m all for gen­der equal­i­ty and social jus­tice, but I think Rad­i­cal fem­i­nists are ruin­ing the whole move­ment and of course, the type of peo­ple you are men­tion­ing aren’t mak­ing things any bet­ter as they keep push­ing the goal posts that offends them. If you like media that have stuff that offends them or don’t agree with, they will bul­ly you. Of course, they are doing this in the name of push­ing their own agen­da and have stuff cen­sored that they don’t like or con­firm to their views.

    This post comes at a coin­ci­dence since a fel­low Ani­me blog­ger who focus­es on yuri Ani­me got told by one of these spe­cial snowflake types that it’s dis­turb­ing for a guy to pro­mote yuri in a pos­i­tive blog because men see women as sex­u­al objects.” I don’t get whats wrong as we don’t see men com­plain­ing about women pro­mot­ing yaoi in a pos­i­tive light because they are sex­u­al­iz­ing men. 

    Talk­ing about trig­ger warn­ings, a bunch of fem­i­nists lashed out at an actu­al fem­i­nist, Christi­na Hoff Som­mers (you should be fami­lar with her) who was giv­ing a speech at Ober­lin over the wage gap. She sug­gest women to change their major to a STEM field like Engi­neer­ing and of course, the social jus­tice war­rior fem­i­nists jeered at her say­ing “don’t tell me what to do!” The self-enti­tle­ment nature of these peo­ple annoy the crap out of me for the fact that they expect a high pay­ing wage in a lib­er­al arts major when those jobs do not exact­ly make a lot of mon­ey com­pared to STEM

    Also, I find the rad­i­cal fem­i­nists com­plain­ing about Bay­o­net­ta rather hyp­o­crit­i­cal for the fact that her char­ac­ter design was done by a female char­ac­ter design­er, Mari Shi­maza­ki. Yep, it just shows that rad­i­cal fem­i­nists don’t care about fem­i­nism since they are attack­ing women who are mak­ing strong female char­ac­ters. To me, that ener­gy can be used to fight for more women rights and gen­der equal­i­ty in coun­tries that don’t have it.

    Aside from that, I pret­ty much ignore these peo­ple as it’s a waste of ener­gy to engage in them as they will nev­er be satisfied.

    1. @chikorita157: I think the hard­est part about ignor­ing them is that they’re always try­ing to dig their way into our enter­tain­ment. West­ern enter­tain­ment espe­cial­ly, but even with Japan­ese enter­tain­ment they pop up with these kind of per­son­al hangups when­ev­er we get local­iza­tions (like the Akiba’s Trip 2 “trap” fias­co, all from peo­ple who prob­a­bly will nev­er buy the game any­way). Some­times the com­pa­nies just ignore them (Mar­velous USA), which is cool, but some­times they man­age to get their way (Bat­man cov­er censorship).
      My con­do­lences to that ani­me blog­ger. It reminds me of that one time where some­one in the com­ments sec­tion of my blog accused me of objec­ti­fy­ing women for hav­ing cute ani­me girls as my lay­out and post images, despite her admit­ting to read­ing man­ga where guys fon­dle each oth­er, and sex­ism was­n’t even the sub­ject of the post. I real­ly hate that double-standard.
      I admire Christi­na Hoff Som­mers for being one of the few fig­ures out there that pro­mote women in a pos­i­tive light. It’s real­ly irri­tat­ing that peo­ple blame their own job deci­sions on oppres­sion and think they deserve to get paid just as much as peo­ple in oth­er fields, sim­ply because the world appar­ent­ly revolves around them. Lash­ing out at peo­ple try­ing to give them advice on the mat­ter does­n’t help me like these types any better.
      As you said, it’s a waste of ener­gy try­ing to con­vince these peo­ple of any­thing, as they’re clear­ly will­ing to tar­get any­one to fur­ther their own agen­da rather than actu­al­ly mak­ing sure females are treat­ed equal­ly in soci­ety. Shi­maza­ki Mari, a woman, being the char­ac­ter design­er of Bay­o­net­ta? “Obvi­ous­ly brain­washed by sex­ist Japan­ese men.” For all intents and pur­pos­es, I would love to just ignore them, but peo­ple call­ing them out on their non­sense actu­al­ly seems to be the only way to keep things from going out of hand.

  8. @Mikoto
    ‑Sukiyo…memories, that was one of my first con­tacts with a (crap­py) shounen ai ani­me, what you men­tion, one guy that is clear­ly male and anoth­er that you can’t tell unless you see the crotch comes with many prob­lems that I won’t list here, but trust me they are big.

    But I would like to point a dif­fer­ence between this type of media and one like Fate, one is, like the Otome genre,written gen­er­al­ly by straight women for oth­er straight women, Fate on the oth­er hand start­ed as a VN with eroge con­tent meant for a male audi­ence, now it has reach such a lev­el of pop­u­lar­i­ty that is has become main­stream, this implies is it meant to be enjoyed by both gen­ders, this said.
    Are there as much bi male char­ac­ters are there are females? is there a scene where a male is sex­u­al­ly assault­ed by either a man or female? nop, that is the dif­fer­ence that I per­son­al­ly do find a prob­lem with, I won’t ask for equal­i­ty since the orig­i­nal source was meant for males, but at the very least I would like writ­ers to attempt to make a difference.

    You men­tion free will, this would lead to anoth­er dis­cus­sion if I was to say every thought regard­ing it, to make it brief, I don’t real­ly think that will is still free when you get into work­ing with main­stream works.

    Aha, I des­like emp­ty shota moe char­ac­ters be them male or female.

    -“Fate/stay night was orig­i­nal­ly going to have a female pro­tag­o­nist and a male king Arthur, as seen in Prototype.”
    I can’t judge a char­ac­ter by a 12 minute short, though per­son­al­ly I’m glad it did­n’t hap­pen, that Saya­ka girl smelled like a clas­sic vul­ner­a­ble famale pro­tag­o­nist that would have her clas­sic male hon­or­able knight…that and I would­n’t exchange female Saber for anything.

    -I don’t con­sid­er those true fem­i­nists, fem­i­nism wants equal­i­ty, when you have reach a point that you want to become what you are fight­ing against with, that you start to reject the help of the males who are in fact agree­ing with you, then you are no longer rep­re­sent­ing what fem­i­nisms orig­i­nal­ly stands for…I have encounter what you describe many times, I won’t deny their exis­tence, just know there are oth­ers who will approve of those male claps.

    - I am a les­bian, how­ev­er I don’t mean every word I say to be tak­en as a rep­re­sen­ta­tion of every oth­er gay female out there.

    mmm here I’ll agree and dis­agree, I agree that obvi­ous­ly it is not just straight males who get aroused by this images, but writ­ers have in mind, when they are plan­ning to make their writ­ings into a com­er­cial work, the audi­ence, Fate start­ed as a work meant for a male audi­ence, that it has scenes that may appeal to les­bians as well hap­pens by chance, that is why usu­al­ly they say things such as “meant for male gaze” this isn’t to say I don’t see your point, it is for that rea­son that I don’t tend to men­tion either gen­der when talk­ing about scenes meant to aroused.
    that and…
    http://io9.com/10-stupid-arguments-people-use-to-defend-comic-book-sex-1636381824
    See the third point, last para­graph, it aplies to main­stream ani­me as well.

    1. @hens­light: — I dun­no. Despite me not being inter­est­ed in boy x boy rela­tion­ships out­side of Touya and Yuk­i­to from CCS, I have spot­ted plen­ty of obvi­ous male homo­sex­u­al sub-con­text in ani­me before that writ­ers clear­ly add in to please the fujoshi ship­pers. As for male rape, I’ve seen it before, though it’s usu­al­ly men who are the assailants: exam­ple, Nak­a­go from Fushi­gi Yuu­gi was raped by his father as a child. No where did I think Watase was try­ing to put down men though. The attempt­ed rape in Fsn (and the rape in Heav­en’s Feel, or Kara no Kyoukai): I don’t think males would nec­es­sar­i­ly care whether or not it’s a female or male, it’s just some­one getting/about to get raped in the sto­ry to increase tension/turmoil and make us hate the vil­lains. I mean, in Fsn, both instances were by Shin­ji — the one char­ac­ter sick enough to do such a thing the first chance he gets, and he is straight, so obvi­ous­ly they would have been girls. Adding even more rape for the sake of gen­der bal­ance seems sil­ly to me. We’d need to cre­ate a female sicko char­ac­ter that would want to assault Shi­rou. In the first place, I don’t even know if Rid­er’s suc­cubus dream counts, or if the scrapped insane-Illya-rap­ing-Shi­rou scene counts (either way, I’m not going to beg Nasu to put that one back in for the sake of hav­ing it). Then we have Gil­gamesh who implies that he’d rape Saber — but that goes along with his ancient Mesopotami­an epic: he was from the age of gods, and he raped dozens of new­ly­wed women out of bore­dom using his “rights as a king” until his cit­i­zens begged the gods to give him some­thing to do.
      ‑The Pro­to­type nov­el isn’t that bad. If you liked Rin, I don’t see why you would­n’t like Aya­ka, since most of her traits car­ried over to Rin in the actu­al Fate/stay night (and Pro­to­type Archer is/became Gil).
      — Yes, sjwar­rior fem­i­nists are the ones I don’t like. I don’t have a prob­lem with “true fem­i­nists”, but I do have a prob­lem with them using a moniker that’s now being asso­ci­at­ed with the sjwar­riors. If they’re for equal rights regard­less of gen­der, then they should call them­selves egal­i­tar­i­ans. “Fem­i­nism” was fit­ting back then because it was­n’t hijacked by cra­zies and females real­ly did­n’t have the same rights as males back then. But now, at least in coun­tries like the Unit­ed States, they do, and now it’s up to the women of today to main­tain a wom­an’s right­ful image of dig­ni­ty to stand along­side men in pow­er, with­out act­ing like spoiled self-enti­tled brats like the sjwar­riors and try­ing to shame the men of today and turn­ing them into “eunuchs” (these aren’t even the same men that oppressed women in the orig­i­nal move­ment, why hold them account­able for any­thing, it’s like me hold­ing some ran­dom white kid respon­si­ble for the My Lai Mas­sacre in Viet­nam). These clowns are real­ly putting a dent into the movement.

  9. What real­ly gets me about this iden­ti­ty pol­i­tics pesu­do-crit­i­cism that’s so pop­u­lar among crit­ics now is just how lazy it all is. These peo­ple just talk about their per­son­al hangups and pre­tend that’s legit­i­mate cri­tique or has any poten­tial to start a discussion.

    I mean: “I’d pre­fer it if my enter­tain­ment media did­n’t expect me to derive plea­sure from a woman being non­con­sen­tu­al­ly felt up.” That’s a per­son­al hangup that says noth­ing about the work. And por­tray­ing it as a crit­i­cism is basi­cal­ly say­ing “This work is defi­cient because it fails to respect my per­son­al hangups.” That’s lazy and that isn’t a crit­i­cism. It’s just a way to look smart and sen­si­tive to social jus­tice issues with­out hav­ing to put in any effort or thought. It’s a raw emo­tion­al reaction.

    This focus on per­son­al iden­ti­ty pol­i­tics, fem­i­nism, and the bull­crap clam­our for “diver­si­ty” and “rep­re­sen­ta­tion” are, at this point, active­ly ham­per­ing dis­cus­sion about these cre­ative works we love. These social-jus­tice-obsessed peo­ple try to force iden­ti­ty pol­i­tics into every con­ver­sa­tion about media, and it’s ruin­ing the way we dis­cuss media.

    Where dis­cus­sion and crit­i­cism used to require per­spec­tive and an open mind, “dis­cus­sion” and “crit­i­cism” now only require a thin skin and the abil­i­ty to rat­tle off buzz­words, and that’s my biggest prob­lem with peo­ple forc­ing their iden­ti­ty pol­i­tics into dia­logue about enter­tain­ment media.

    1. @Timeen­forcer­anu­bis: I agree, at this point peo­ple are just forc­ing the same per­son­al pol­i­tics and social sen­si­tiv­i­ty into every dis­cus­sion and suck­ing all the poten­tial sub­stance that those dis­cus­sions could have had from being about the actu­al work itself.

      It’s like if I want­ed some­one to cri­tique the com­po­si­tion of my draw­ing of a mead­ow with dan­de­lions, and all I get are peo­ple telling me that my draw­ing is trash because they’re aller­gic to dan­de­lions, so I should replace the dan­de­lions with anoth­er flower and should­n’t draw dan­de­lions ever.

  10. @Mikoto ” I have spot­ted plen­ty of obvi­ous male homo­sex­u­al sub-con­text in ani­me before that writ­ers clear­ly add in to please the fujoshi shippers.”

    this has noth­ing to do with the sub­ject at hand but…THANK YOU, you have no idea how hap­py it makes me to see a man who is not a BL fan who can admit to see this with­out fear or insecurity.

    About it, excuse me if I sound repet­i­tive but here lies a dif­fer­ence as well, it’s SUB­text, it’s not TEXT, it can be point­ed to be there as much as you can say it is not, on Fate some think it’s there between Gil­gamesh and Kirei or Alexan­der and Waver, as much as I would­n’t mind this to be true I don’t see clear evi­dence (text) to say so, on the oth­er hand we know for sure Saber, Rin, Rid­er, Cast­er, Saku­ra and some of the oth­er girls are if not Bisex­u­al at the very least het­ero flexible.

    There are cas­es of male rape as well but I have to try hard to think about any because they are rare, out­side the BL Visu­al Nov­els genre (bad end­ings tend to have the hero raped) the only exam­ples I can think of, to my knowl­edge, are the Ute­na movie and the Blood plus anime.
    With females I can name a lot, this dif­fer­ence is sta­tis­tics is what is alarming.

    The attempt­ed rape in Fsn ”
    You are for­get­ting when we are giv­en a POV of Saku­ra’s mind when she was hold­ing Rin pris­on­er with her slimy ten­ta­cle thin­gies, she admits to find­ing the sit­u­a­tion arousing.

    Then we have Cast­er and Saber, the lat­ter was held pris­on­er as well, was giv­en a new more reveal­ing dress, put in a posi­tion with her ass stick­ing out and appears to be expe­ri­enc­ing an orgasm instead of pain judg­ing by her face.

    I can’t pos­si­bly beleive there was­n’t a way to arrange this anoth­er way.

    This isn’t to say I fount that sit­u­a­tion offen­sive, if you want Cast­er to be a sadis­tic Saber fan­girl then be it, I just men­tion this to set an exam­ple of the dif­fer­ence in gen­der treat­ment in main­stream anime.

    Regard­ing feminisms…I’ll have to dif­fer on one point, it is called like this and not anoth­er word that means equal­i­ty to point that this absence of equal­i­ty had to do with the fact that there was a clear dif­fer­ence in gen­der roles at the time, this dif­fer­ence being that women were con­sid­ered infe­ri­or. (and still are in many countries)

    But now, at least in coun­tries like the Unit­ed States, they do”

    Not real­ly, this fight is not to change just what is easy to spot such as a dif­fer­ence in salaries or kids being tak­en care more by the mom instead of the dad, it is also to change con­ducts and thoughts in dai­ly life, thoughts that both gen­ders share that may appear harm­less com­pare to the men­tioned exam­ples but that still con­tribute to this lack of equal­i­ty, here,10 examples:

    -a dis­play of feel­ings is just for women.
    ‑if you have a small dick you are a loser.
    ‑if you are a man who fucks a lot you are a win­ner and if you are female you are a whore.
    ‑women can take care of their appear­ance, men can’t, if you do you are not manly.
    ‑hav­ing balls means brave, pussy means coward.
    — if a man rapes a girl and this girl was show­ing skin it is her fault for expos­ing her body, not the rap­er for raping.
    — a man who curs­es reg­u­lar­l­ly is dis­gust­ing because his speech is disgusting,
    a woman who does so is dis­gust­ing because that is for boys.
    — Same as the above, a man talk­ing about shit? nat­ur­al, a girl? disgrace.
    — an opin­ion­at­ed man is a man, an opin­ion­at­ed woman is a bitch.
    — men should be the ones pay­ing in dates, always, no mat­ter what.

    And I could on and on and on…

    1. @henslight: Those are per­son­al bias­es that you lit­er­al­ly can­not just force a change in unless we have the thought police mon­i­tor every­one’s belief sys­tem, like racism.
      I do not dis­agree that any of what you list­ed are hyp­o­crit­i­cal ways that peo­ple think, but the idea of orga­niz­ing a sys­tem that con­trols every­one’s dai­ly lives and does not allow any­one to dis­sent, ever, is alarm­ing­ly close to that of fas­cism. I don’t think some­one should be mon­i­tored sim­ply for hurt­ing my feel­ings, for instance.
      Women are get­ting stoned in the Mid­dle East and mis­treat­ed in oth­er coun­tries, that’s some­thing to be alarmed and active about, but in Amer­i­ca at least, you could live the life of a woman rel­a­tive­ly peace­ful­ly with the same human rights as a man does. Bias­es exist and as you described, they are not lim­it­ed to neg­a­tiv­i­ty of just women, so in con­text of Amer­i­ca, “fem­i­nism” is hard­ly a fit­ting term for sup­port of human equal­i­ty. Evi­dent­ly in mod­ern Amer­i­ca, where both sex­es are equal­ly pro­tect­ed by writ­ten law.
      Focus on pro­mot­ing your­self pos­i­tive­ly, and don’t care what big­ots say if you are in a coun­try that allows you to have a voice. Raise your chil­dren to be peo­ple who respect human beings regard­less. And don’t let them turn into lit­tle big­ots them­selves who make a big deal out of men spread­ing their legs or women tak­ing up space with their purs­es on pub­lic trans­port when there are real issues in the out­side world that need their atten­tion. Some places still don’t allow gay mar­riage, for instance. Fight the bul­lies with­out becom­ing one and actu­al­ly make a difference.
      We already had a big­ot-I-shall-not-name-here in the gam­ing indus­try that got away with ben­e­fit­ing from uneth­i­cal acts, includ­ing scape­goat­ing a “sup­port” image­board full of social anx­i­ety-rid­den male vir­gins for “harass­ing” her over the phone, even if they are in no con­di­tion to even pick up a phone, and embar­rassed them all over the media even though all they want­ed to do was be left alone in their lit­tle cor­ner of the inter­net (even I did­n’t know who they were until the news out­lets bul­lied them). Of course, no one cared about media humil­i­a­tion because they are male vir­gins, who are seen as jokes. But of course the media goes out of its way to cen­sor said big­ot sleep­ing with video game jour­nal­ists and sud­den­ly peo­ple are okay with that because rea­sons. Ugh. Peo­ple like this oper­ate under the guise of fem­i­nism and unfor­tu­nate­ly these are the kind of peo­ple asso­ci­at­ed the term with now. I per­son­al­ly think it’s best that peo­ple who sup­port true equal­i­ty for every­one should move far away from hav­ing the same label as these peo­ple with clear­ly oppo­site inten­tions. I don’t want to see some­one like Christi­na Hoff Som­mers lumped in the same cat­e­go­ry as the peo­ple who think there’s no prob­lem with mak­ing a lit­tle boy feel like a poten­tial rapist.
      Social jus­tice fem­i­nists attack true fem­i­nists for ever con­sid­er­ing males, espe­cial­ly straight white males. The dif­fer­ence is clear.
      Back to cre­ative media, say for instance as an artist, I love draw­ing the female form. What if I were forced to draw the male form because oth­ers felt like I should? It’s not like I’m putting down males down or any­thing, I’m just cre­at­ing things I like to cre­ate. But, it’d be nice if some­one who felt that there was a strange lack of artis­tic depic­tions of the male form would step up the plate and do some­thing about it them­selves, instead of forc­ing me to cre­ate some­thing I don’t want to.

  11. What, so basi­cal­ly “bad guys shouldn’t do bad things because bad things are bad”? Shin­ji, who is clear­ly a sicko and desires Rin, should have baked her a batch of cook­ies instead?

    The review­er says noth­ing of the kind. Say­ing, “Please no more rape imagery,” is no stronger a state­ment than, “I real­ly don’t enjoy watch­ing that.”

    Should review­ers put such remarks into their reviews? Maybe one can argue they should­n’t, but it’s a clear per­son­al opin­ion, and it says noth­ing about the use of sex­u­al vio­lence in fic­tion in gen­er­al. You’re the one mak­ing that conclusion.

    That review­er isn’t opposed to sex­u­al vio­lence in fic­tion in gen­er­al. She wrote exten­sive­ly on it for her reviews on Maria the Vir­gin Witch:

    It’s nice to see an ani­me that’s inten­tion­al­ly uncom­fort­able in its por­tray­al of sex­u­al vio­lence. Whether a rape scene “works” or not is always a mat­ter of the view­er’s per­son­al bound­aries, but in all of my years of watch­ing ani­me, I’ve rarely seen a show han­dle the issue as taste­ful­ly as Maria the Vir­gin Witch does. Mari­a’s assault is bru­tal, ful­ly play­ing to the audi­ence’s ter­ror and indig­na­tion. The sound design car­ries the scene – rather than show our hero­ine beat­en and chained, they cut to shots of her home as it creaks under the pres­sure of her fad­ing mag­ic. The tight fram­ing nev­er gives us a good shot of Mari­a’s body. A lot of rape scenes shoot them­selves in the foot by giv­ing the view­er sala­cious access to the vic­tim’s form. The clos­est the episode got to mak­ing me uncom­fort­able were those shots of Maria prone in the wag­on, but even then they’re meant to be indica­tive of the dam­age inflict­ed on her.

    For this review­er, rape in itself is not an auto­mat­ic fail, but how it’s han­dled makes or breaks the scene. That’s a review­er’s job, isn’t it? To judge and offer opin­ion on whether the stu­dio’s han­dling of a scene adds or sub­tracts to the work?

    In light of that review, the review­er’s objec­tion to show­ing Rin’s thighs in this episode is not a sur­prise. And in the con­text of the UBW ani­me as a whole? This is the show that had Rin’s butt wav­ing in the air. This is the show that put a shot of Rin’s thighs into her con­ver­sa­tion with Archer back in the first episode of this cour. This is the show that put Saber in that dress, with her rear end all but exposed, and insert­ed shots of Saber in that dress into con­ver­sa­tions that did­n’t involve her.

    None of that was damn­ing or awful, just eye­roll-wor­thy. Actu­al­ly show­ing Shin­ji touch Rin on cam­era was about the same, real­ly. Giv­en the his­to­ry the show has of fanser­vice, the choice to show that on-cam­era ver­sus off- must be inter­pret­ed as giv­ing more room for tit­il­la­tion. Per­haps not a lot, but more than the alternative.

    Frankly, all the rail­ing you do against this line of crit­i­cism could just as eas­i­ly be turned around against you for your crit­i­cism of ufotable’s laps­es in atten­tion to the wider con­ti­nu­ity: what does it mat­ter whether Shi­rou has any white hair when he makes a pact with Alaya? What’s the would the point be of show­ing EMIYA with Ciel’s red cape? Anoth­er view­er might say, “These details are mean­ing­less to me; I don’t care about them. It’s unrea­son­able to make any kind of stink about them.”

    Of course, you know that you mean such remarks only as small crit­i­cisms. The same with the ANN review­er, who spent only one short para­graph (out of a sev­en para­graph review) on the issue of Shin­ji and Rin. The rest of the time, she talks about pac­ing, about ensem­ble sto­ry­lines vs. sin­gle pro­tag­o­nist sto­ry­lines, about rep­e­ti­tion and tone, about adap­ta­tion deci­sions in where to end scenes.

    You’re the one blow­ing this up as though this was some huge, reac­tionary fem­i­nist rant. I get it: to you, this is some­thing not worth crit­i­ciz­ing. But just as I would not accuse you of hav­ing a sin­is­ter agen­da in ask­ing ufotable to pay more atten­tion to Fate con­ti­nu­ity details, I think you should con­sid­er that a per­son ask­ing ufotable to rethink how they han­dled a sex­u­al assault scene does­n’t have a sin­is­ter agen­da, either. Both of these are things real peo­ple actu­al­ly care about.

    You wrote up a huge, angry rant about one para­graph in an ani­me review. You might want to con­sid­er: who is the over­sen­si­tive one right now?

    1. The review­er says noth­ing of the kind. Say­ing, “Please no more rape imagery,” is no stronger a state­ment than, “I real­ly don’t enjoy watch­ing that.”

      How is it not? It’s clear­ly imply­ing that the attempt­ed rape should­n’t be there in the first place despite it going along with how dan­ger­ous Shin­ji’s char­ac­ter is. The leg shot alone is lit­er­al­ly the only indi­ca­tion that Shin­ji isn’t dri­ving his grimy fin­gers up Rin’s per­son­al areas. 

      Where­as with “I real­ly don’t enjoy watch­ing that” — Look, I did­n’t enjoy watch­ing Rin almost get­ting vio­lat­ed. Not even in the VN where the bas­tard fuck­ing licked her cheek too. But my reac­tion isn’t frig­gin’ “please no more offen­sive rape imagery, the women, oh the poor women!”. It’s me actu­al­ly get­ting engrossed into the sto­ry and wor­ry­ing about the characters.

      Should review­ers put such remarks into their reviews? Maybe one can argue they shouldn’t, but it’s a clear per­son­al opin­ion, and it says noth­ing about the use of sex­u­al vio­lence in fic­tion in gen­er­al. You’re the one mak­ing that conclusion.

      No, my point is that peo­ple like this tend to cher­ry-pick things they don’t like when it’s con­ve­nient for them.

      The rest of my “huge angry rant” was about these types of peo­ple in gen­er­al, like Ani­ta’s crit­i­cisms of Bay­o­net­ta. I see this crap all the time now, see­ing that ANN review­er just broke the camel’s back and served as an opening.

      In light of that review, the reviewer’s objec­tion to show­ing Rin’s thighs in this episode is not a sur­prise. And in the con­text of the UBW ani­me as a whole? This is the show that had Rin’s butt wav­ing in the air. This is the show that put a shot of Rin’s thighs into her con­ver­sa­tion with Archer back in the first episode of this cour. This is the show that put Saber in that dress, with her rear end all but exposed, and insert­ed shots of Saber in that dress into con­ver­sa­tions that didn’t involve her.

      None of that was damn­ing or awful, just eye­roll-wor­thy. Actu­al­ly show­ing Shin­ji touch Rin on cam­era was about the same, real­ly. Giv­en the his­to­ry the show has of fanser­vice, the choice to show that on-cam­era ver­sus off- must be inter­pret­ed as giv­ing more room for tit­il­la­tion. Per­haps not a lot, but more than the alternative.

      1) Cast­er is a sadist that gets a sex­u­al thrill out of see­ing Saber squirm and break­ing anoth­er wom­an’s fan­tasies. If you know her back­ground as Princess Medea, you would know that this would fit per­fect­ly with her char­ac­ter. Nasu did not write the sex scenes in the orig­i­nal ver­sion of the VN despite the mass amounts of mis­in­formed infor­ma­tion (he just acknowl­edges that they hap­pen in the main sto­ry he actu­al­ly writes), and there’s no way he’d put that in as just fanser­vice just because he felt like it.

      2) The gaze shots of Rin’s thighs ear­li­er in the ani­me were in a light­heart­ed envi­ron­ment, not only that, but I can at least iden­ti­fy gaze shots of Lancer’s butt too. Just because straight males enjoy the female visu­al form and straight females enjoy the male visu­al form auto­mat­i­cal­ly mean they’ll just get aroused when a bor­der­line rape hap­pens? What?

      Frankly, all the rail­ing you do against this line of crit­i­cism could just as eas­i­ly be turned around against you for your crit­i­cism of ufotable’s laps­es in atten­tion to the wider con­ti­nu­ity: what does it mat­ter whether Shi­rou has any white hair when he makes a pact with Alaya? What’s the would the point be of show­ing EMIYA with Ciel’s red cape? Anoth­er view­er might say, “These details are mean­ing­less to me; I don’t care about them. It’s unrea­son­able to make any kind of stink about them.”

      Because it actu­al­ly (mind blown) has some­thing to do the show’s plot and world-build­ing, and the sub­ject char­ac­ter in-ques­tion? Miss­ing details and the like can lead to mis­in­ter­pre­ta­tion by ani­me-only view­ers which I’ve already seen hap­pen­ing, which affects the flow of fan dis­cus­sions of the work (some peo­ple actu­al­ly care about that). In my impres­sions posts, I point out the impor­tant things (I feel) that are left out of the ani­me to help ani­me-only view­ers stay informed when dis­cussing these works with oth­ers who have read the source mate­r­i­al, Fate/Zero-entry fans includ­ed, or hell, sim­ply if they just want­ed to know more about it. Last­ly, the biggest dif­fer­ence between myself who does casu­al thoughts about UBW and actu­al­ly like it, and this review­er is that I’m not tox­ic towards peo­ple who like the things I don’t and blast the neg­a­tive tone hard just to incite an reaction.

      ACTUAL tweets from the sjwar­rior reviewer:

      the only thing that makes me hap­pi­er than mak­ing f/sn fans mad is mak­ing brett eas­t­on ellis fans mad
      Maybe I just have high stan­dards b/c I study lit­er­a­ture, but the prose in F/SN is real­ly inex­cus­ably bad.
      Some parts are the result of the trans­la­tion, but oth­ers (like the godaw­ful repet­i­tive­ness) can­not be.
      I think the sex­u­al vio­lence is actu­al­ly false­ly rep­re­sent­ed as the only misog­y­nist stuff in F/SN. Even w/o it, that series is sexist.
      Nasu has stat­ed in inter­views that his idea for the Fate route was Saber “dis­cov­er­ing her fem­i­nin­i­ty” through ban­gin’ Shi­rou, which is, um-
      ‑kin­daaaaa a super sex­ist propo­si­tion. Man writ­ing about WHAT IS FEMININITY. Turns out badass King Arthur is a sad lit­tle girl inside. ):
      It’s not just the sex scenes, it’s bad atti­tudes about women & sex implic­it from the game’s worldview.
      “No ide­o­log­i­cal bias” is real­ly just code for “con­forms with the dom­i­nant ide­o­log­i­cal bias.” We live in air so it’s invisible.
      Review “with­out ide­o­log­i­cal bias” is the new “objec­tive” review.

      In regards to the fran­chise, peo­ple who aren’t mere­ly pas­sive­ly inter­est­ed in Japan­ese media stopped tak­ing her seri­ous­ly right when she blast­ed Nasu’s writ­ing from mir­ror-moon’s fan trans­la­tion, among oth­er things that break her cred­i­bil­i­ty when it comes to her remarks about this series, which would just be me reit­er­at­ing what peo­ple have been say­ing since she’s been doing these reviews.

      In regards to the review­er, she’s a stuck-up ass who thinks her stan­dards are above absolute­ly every­one else’s. If this is the mind behind the “pro­fes­sion­al” words, I hon­est­ly don’t want to read any more of it. There are even more tox­ic peo­ple out there that bring in the same gen­der and per­son­al pol­i­tics into geek sub­cul­ture and try­ing to see it in every lit­tle thing to cre­ate dra­ma, etc. and I was doing a damn good job of ignor­ing them and not say­ing any­thing of the con­trary for quite some time. The answer is: no, I’m not being over­ly sen­si­tive. Not when it comes t this, at least.

  12. How is it not? It’s clear­ly imply­ing that the attempt­ed rape shouldn’t be there in the first place despite it going along with how dan­ger­ous Shinji’s char­ac­ter is. The leg shot alone is lit­er­al­ly the only indi­ca­tion that Shin­ji isn’t dri­ving his grimy fin­gers up Rin’s per­son­al areas. 

    Let me quote the reviewer:

    Final­ly, Shin­ji’s assault on Rin was gross and unnec­es­sary. It was­n’t as bad as it could have been (no blush­ing or squirm­ing), but the shots of him feel­ing up her legs were clear­ly meant to tit­il­late the audience.

    The shots. The pri­ma­ry objec­tion is to putting those actions on screen. And while the review­er does say that the assu­alt is “gross and unnec­es­sary,” I’ve already quot­ed mate­r­i­al from her in which she is explic­it­ly okay with the use of sex­u­al vio­lence in oth­er works. This is far from a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on evil peo­ple doing evil things, and your char­ac­ter­i­za­tion oth­er­wise is noth­ing less than a dis­tor­tion to make a point.

    1) Cast­er is a sadist that gets a sex­u­al thrill out of see­ing Saber squirm and break­ing anoth­er woman’s fan­tasies. If you know her back­ground as Princess Medea, you would know that this would fit per­fect­ly with her char­ac­ter. Nasu did not write the sex scenes in the VN despite the mass amounts of mis­in­formed infor­ma­tion (he just acknowl­edges that they hap­pen in the main sto­ry he actu­al­ly writes), and there’s no way he’d put that in as just fanser­vice just because he felt like it.

    An action being in-char­ac­ter or con­sis­tent with estab­lished back­sto­ry is not in itself a com­plete jus­ti­fi­ca­tion or defense of some­thing being put into a work. What does Cast­er’s sex­u­al fix­a­tion on Saber add to the sto­ry beyond get­ting to see Saber in that dress?

    2) The gaze shots of Rin’s thighs ear­li­er in the ani­me were in a light­heart­ed envi­ron­ment, not only that, but I can at least iden­ti­fy gaze shots of Lancer’s butt too. Just because straight males enjoy the female form and straight females enjoy the male form auto­mat­i­cal­ly mean they’ll just pay atten­tion to hat dur­ing a bor­der­line rape scene? What?

    I’m mere­ly using the con­text and his­to­ry of what a show has done to try to deter­mine what feel­ings it might try to get across in a par­tic­u­lar scene.

    Because it actu­al­ly (mind blown) has some­thing to do the show’s plot and world-build­ing, and the sub­ject char­ac­ter in-ques­tion? Miss­ing details and the like can lead to mis­in­ter­pre­ta­tion by ani­me-only view­ers which I’ve already seen hap­pen­ing, which affects the flow of fan dis­cus­sions of the work. In my impres­sions posts, I point out the impor­tant things (I feel) that are left out of the ani­me to help ani­me-only review­ers stay informed when dis­cussing these works with oth­ers who have read the source mate­r­i­al, Zero fans includ­ed, or hell, sim­ply if they just want­ed to know more about it. Last­ly, the biggest dif­fer­ence between myself who does casu­al thoughts about UBW and actu­al­ly like it, and this review­er is that I’m not tox­ic towards the fan­dom and blast the neg­a­tive tone hard just to cite an reaction.

    I can eas­i­ly imag­ine an argu­ment that is just as dis­mis­sive of that world­build­ing and minor details.

    World­build­ing? Who cares. No rea­son­able per­son would be annoyed or dis­ap­point­ed that a tiny detail in some hid­den away back­sto­ry was­n’t con­formed to. It’s small pota­toes com­pared to the ide­o­log­i­cal dis­t­nace between Shi­rou and Archer.”

    It’s real­ly no dif­fer­ent than the argu­ment you’re making.

    Sex­u­al vio­lence? Who cares. No rea­son­able per­son would be annoyed or dis­ap­point­ed that Rin is shown with Shin­ji’s fin­gers almost up her skirt. It’s small pota­toes com­pared to Lancer punch­ing out Shin­ji for it.”

    But mess­ing up those details could con­fuse new view­ers and could encour­age more fruit­less con­ver­sa­tions! That’s unpleasant!”

    But show­ing Rin being touched like that is pan­der­ing to peo­ple with rape fan­tasies and could encour­age more rape fan­ta­sy in ani­me! That’s unpleasant!”

    Unsur­pris­ing­ly, peo­ple care about dif­fer­ent stuff on the Inter­net. You care about inter­ac­tion with the new fan­base. She cares about gen­der issues. I don’t see how what you care about is intrin­si­cal­ly more impor­tant, or more wor­thy of say­ing, than what she cares about. And yes, you don’t only care about inter­ac­tion with the new fan­base. Nei­ther does she only care about gen­der issues.

    You’ve con­clud­ed she’s try­ing to incite a reac­tion mere­ly because you vehe­ment­ly dis­agree with her and because she express­es her dis­like of the Fate fan­base, but in spite of that dis­like, she’s been very pos­i­tive on the series over­all. This is the low­est grade she’s giv­en to an episode, and she gave it a C.

    Per­haps there’s a wider prob­lem with peo­ple being unrea­son­able, but this review­er did not come any­where close to say­ing that rape can’t be pre­sent­ed in fic­tion peri­od, or that bad guys can’t do bad things peri­od. She remarked pri­mar­i­ly about the pre­sen­ta­tion of the scene, which you dis­tort­ed into a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on sex­u­al vio­lence in gen­er­al, and to neglect how that pre­sen­ta­tion could play upon ani­me’s his­to­ry of fetishiz­ing sex­u­al vio­lence is to be will­ful­ly ignorant.

    Has there been far worse stuff pro­duced? Sure. That does not mean, no mat­ter how con­sis­tent this assault was with Shin­ji’s char­ac­ter, that the sto­ry is bet­ter for it. Think about it: this sex­u­al assault was used basi­cal­ly to set­up a gag that’s become an amus­ing gif.

    Think about it. They used sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag. Peo­ple are raped every day, and there’s a show that uses sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag.

    I don’t think you have to be “over­sen­si­tive” to think there’s some­thing a lit­tle off about that.

    1. The shots. The pri­ma­ry objec­tion is to putting those actions on screen. And while the review­er does say that the assu­alt is “gross and unnec­es­sary,” I’ve already quot­ed mate­r­i­al from her in which she is explic­it­ly okay with the use of sex­u­al vio­lence in oth­er works. This is far from a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on evil peo­ple doing evil things, and your char­ac­ter­i­za­tion oth­er­wise is noth­ing less than a dis­tor­tion to make a point.
      An uncom­fort­able assault scene is an uncom­fort­able assault scene. Unless it’s cel­e­brat­ed, then what is even the matter?

      If Ufotable real­ly want­ed to arouse rape fetishists, they would have threw away the orig­i­nal scene entirely.

      Rin would have been raped, expe­ri­enced body betray­al and moaned in ecsta­sy (and either start­ed to like it or con­tin­ued to hate it depend­ing on how fucked up you peo­ple think Japan is), and then Shin­ji would have left her to cry as the cam­era showed the demor­al­ized vis­age of the destruc­tion of a strong girl.

      But that did­n’t hap­pen. He just touched her thigh and he got the shit punched out of him by a mytho­log­i­cal hero.
      An action being in-char­ac­ter or con­sis­tent with estab­lished back­sto­ry is not in itself a com­plete jus­ti­fi­ca­tion or defense of some­thing being put into a work. What does Caster’s sex­u­al fix­a­tion on Saber add to the sto­ry beyond get­ting to see Saber in that dress?

      Uh, because that is some­thing Princess Medea would do after all that crap she’s been through in her myth? She want­ed to break Saber’s men­tal pride as a knight by dress­ing Saber up as a vul­ner­a­ble female. What, you want her to peel off her toe­nails one by one instead? Chop off her limbs? 

      Like, what the hell, are you expect­ing every work to write their char­ac­ters out-of-char­ac­ter just because it offends you?

      I’m mere­ly using the con­text and his­to­ry of what a show has done to try to deter­mine what feel­ings it might try to get across in a par­tic­u­lar scene.

      Com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent types of scenes with com­plete­ly dif­fer­ent types of con­text. Great job. That’s like say­ing the clas­sic com­i­cal “tsun­dere hits main char­ac­ter with a mal­let” is a rea­son to assume that a lat­er scene where a mal­let is used to smash some­one’s skull open is meant to be fun­ny too.

      I can eas­i­ly imag­ine an argu­ment that is just as dis­mis­sive of that world­build­ing and minor details.

      World­build­ing? Who cares. No rea­son­able per­son would be annoyed or dis­ap­point­ed that a tiny detail in some hid­den away back­sto­ry wasn’t con­formed to. It’s small pota­toes com­pared to the ide­o­log­i­cal dis­t­nace between Shi­rou and Archer.”

      It’s real­ly no dif­fer­ent than the argu­ment you’re making.

      Huh…? Yes it is. Those actu­al­ly direct­ly affects the depth and under­stand­ing of the plot and char­ac­ters, and helps fill in plot holes and untold aspects of the char­ac­ters’ motivations.
      How Shi­rou changed skin col­or and got a tan is an semi-help­ful detail to know for a fan who isn’t just pas­sive­ly inter­est­ed in the Fate/stay night series and wish to talk about it with oth­er fans.

      Where­as gen­der pol­i­tics have fuck­ing noth­ing to do with Fate/stay night.

      Sex­u­al vio­lence? Who cares. No rea­son­able per­son would be annoyed or dis­ap­point­ed that Rin is shown with Shinji’s fin­gers almost up her skirt. It’s small pota­toes com­pared to Lancer punch­ing out Shin­ji for it.”

      Yes, because the rape was­n’t cel­e­brat­ed and the rapist was­n’t fuck­ing giv­en a pat on the back. He gets punched in the face.

      He’ll get stabbed and turned into a mon­stros­i­ty lat­er too.

      He’ll get mur­dered by his lit­tle fos­ter sis­ter who he’s raped all his life.

      He got stepped on by Berserk­er in the Fate route.

      Of course hav­ing his grimy fin­gers up her skirt is annoy­ing. You’re sup­posed to hate Shin­ji as a vil­lain. He’s not some throw­away harm­less gag vil­lain, he’s an actu­al threat with no com­pas­sion in all of the routes. I got annoyed when my favorite char­ac­ter had her heart ripped out too. This isn’t a sto­ry about hold­ing hands around a bon­fire and singing Kum­baya, be pre­pared to get shocked/disgusted or don’t watch at all.

      But mess­ing up those details could con­fuse new view­ers and could encour­age more fruit­less con­ver­sa­tions! That’s unpleasant!”

      ???? What bizarro world did I land in where con­fus­ing view­ers is a good thing?

      Fruit­less con­ver­sa­tion”. lol Of course you would­n’t care about the plot or the char­ac­ter inter­ac­tions, it’s all about the gen­der pol­i­tics in this ani­me called Unlim­it­ed Gen­der Works where sev­en Mas­ters gath­er togeth­er to share their diverse back­grounds and gen­der iden­ti­fi­ca­tion. Don’t for­get they sum­mon Peo­ple Of Color! 

      But show­ing Rin being touched like that is pan­der­ing to peo­ple with rape fan­tasies and could encour­age more rape fan­ta­sy in ani­me! That’s unpleasant!”
      “In a show that revolves around a rit­u­al that involves mur­der! I sure do have my pri­or­i­ties straight!”

      TRIGGER WARNING: ejac­u­lat­ing to murder

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lust_murder

      You’ve con­clud­ed she’s try­ing to incite a reac­tion mere­ly because you vehe­ment­ly dis­agree with her and because she express­es her dis­like of the Fate fan­base, but in spite of that dis­like, she’s been very pos­i­tive on the series over­all. This is the low­est grade she’s giv­en to an episode, and she gave it a C.
      Because call­ing it sex­ist at every lit­tle oppor­tu­ni­ty she can is the most pos­i­tive thing ever.

      She gen­er­al­izes the whole series, includ­ing the VN and Nasu, as sex­ist. Despite only ctrl-ing through the Fate route to find sex­ist lines on a live stream. She loves Fate/Zero even though the women in that series did jack­shit, except for Saber.
      The only rea­son she does­n’t give it a worse rat­ing is prob­a­bly to prove that every­thing non-Nasu is superior.

      10/10 review­er, would rec­om­mend to Kotaku

      Per­haps there’s a wider prob­lem with peo­ple being unrea­son­able, but this review­er did not come any­where close to say­ing that rape can’t be pre­sent­ed in fic­tion peri­od, or that bad guys can’t do bad things period. 

      Rape can be uncom­fort­able as long as it does­n’t offend. ◔_◔

      Bad guys can do bad things as long as they keep to per­son­al bound­aries like good lit­tle bad guys!

      She remarked pri­mar­i­ly about the pre­sen­ta­tion of the scene, which you dis­tort­ed into a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on sex­u­al vio­lence in gen­er­al, and to neglect how that pre­sen­ta­tion could play upon anime’s his­to­ry of fetishiz­ing sex­u­al vio­lence is to be will­ful­ly ignorant.

      Ani­me’s his­to­ry of fetishiz­ing sex­u­al vio­lence to pan­der to cis white males, ammirite?

      Has there been far worse stuff pro­duced? Sure. That does not mean, no mat­ter how con­sis­tent this assault was with Shinji’s char­ac­ter, that the sto­ry is bet­ter for it. 

      A good ani­me has incon­sis­tent char­ac­ters. Gotcha.

      Think about it: this sex­u­al assault was used basi­cal­ly to set­up a gag that’s become an amus­ing gif.

      A lot of scenes in this show become gifs.

      Peo­ple make gifs from a ton of shows

      There’s a gif of Gil­gamesh rip­ping out Illya’s heart

      What is even your point

      They prob­a­bly gif’d it because they hate Shin­ji and loved that he got what he deserved.

      Think about it. They used sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag. Peo­ple are raped every day, and there’s a show that uses sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag.

      I don’t think you have to be “over­sen­si­tive” to think there’s some­thing a lit­tle off about that.

      It’s. A. Series. That. Has. Mur­der.

      Orphans are zombified.

      A woman got her neck twisted

      A small girl got her eyes slashed, got stabbed, and then had heart surgery

      A demigod got mur­dered 12 times by a dude who killed a bull and oth­er peasants

      A woman and her boyfriend got skew­ered by swords by a dude that got skew­ered by swords and then hanged

      Same man killed Mid­dle East­ern ter­ror­ists and home­less people

      The blue man com­mit­ted suicide.

      Assas­sin comes out of Assas­sin and then eats Assassin.

      Assas­sin takes blue man’s heart and eats it.

      Old Man Worms eats peo­ple and shits out a new body

      Wor­m­girl mur­ders half the city includ­ing goldie

      Wor­m­girl mur­ders Old Man Worms but did­n’t real­ly and then he com­mits suicide

      Boy gets his arm chopped off in mur­der attempt, but gets a new arm from his oth­er self who got mur­dered and then mur­ders a demigod, and then goes on to mur­der the girl who saved him from a guy who tried to mur­der him but is now try­ing to mur­der him

      And then he mur­ders a dead man.

      [spoiler]Do you real­ize how baf­fling you peo­ple sound to non-Tum­blr peo­ple when you com­plain about the “insen­si­tiv­i­ty” of rape in this series?![/spoiler]

  13. Those are per­son­al bias­es that you lit­er­al­ly can­not just force a change in unless we have the thought police mon­i­tor everyone’s belief sys­tem, like racism.”

    Noth­ing is per­son­al, you weren’t born into the world and instant­ly thought “I am a man and I should­n’t cry, and she is a woman so she should” this ideas are installed into soci­ety and the sources have to do with a patri­archy that made rules that affect­ed women on a larg­er scale and men them­selves in a smaller,subtle yet very much existing,scale.

    We don’t want to manip­u­late peo­ple to think WRONG WRONG ME NOT THINK THIS we want peo­ple not to repeat what oth­ers taught them as a par­rot just because, to sit down and try to think by them­selves why do I have such a thought? 

    About the term fem­i­nism, if you don’t like to use it to rep­re­sent your­self I won’t tell you to do oth­er­wise, all I want is to see more and more peo­ple real­is­ing some of our thoughts are, as you say, hyp­o­crit­i­cal, and think it twice every time we have them.

    Focus on pro­mot­ing your­self pos­i­tive­ly, and don’t care what big­ots say if you are in a coun­try that allows you to have a voice.”

    I wish it could be that sim­ple, I don’t live in the USA, I live in Argenti­na, and here like in oth­er Latin Amer­i­can coun­tries despite hav­ing the same law for both men and women, despite even hav­ing same sex mar­riage approved, sex­ism, real­ly hurt­ful sex­ism, is still so vivid…so I wish I could do as you say, but I can’t.

    May you be refer­ing to Ani­ta and a cer­tain gam­ing site that said “We won’t exclude homo­sex­u­als or attrac­tive women” because if you are…I won’t go there.

    I’d say it depends on what kind of artist you are, a self pub­lished or under­ground artist or a main­stream artist that works with a main­stream com­pa­ny that has the pow­er to influ­ence count­less of peo­ple all over the world?

  14. @Muphrid

    The review­er says noth­ing of the kind. Say­ing, “Please no more rape imagery,” is no stronger a state­ment than, “I real­ly don’t enjoy watch­ing that.”

    Should review­ers put such remarks into their reviews? Maybe one can argue they shouldn’t, but it’s a clear per­son­al opin­ion, and it says noth­ing about the use of sex­u­al vio­lence in fic­tion in gen­er­al. You’re the one mak­ing that conclusion.”

    Are you real­ly this fuck­ing stu­pid this lev­el of cog­ni­tive dis­so­nance is out­stand­ing. You lit­er­al­ly quote her say­ing “Rape Imagery” she also said she found those shots dis­gust­ing you fuck­ing idiot work on your read­ing comprehension. 

    That review­er isn’t opposed to sex­u­al vio­lence in fic­tion in gen­er­al. She wrote exten­sive­ly on it for her reviews on Maria the Vir­gin Witch. For this review­er, rape in itself is not an auto­mat­ic fail, but how it’s han­dled makes or breaks the scene.”

    Ah I see! So you mean when its done in the con­text she approves of then it’s okay. Yeah no hypocrisy here!

    That’s a reviewer’s job, isn’t it? To judge and offer opin­ion on whether the studio’s han­dling of a scene adds or sub­tracts to the work?”

    Yes it is. But that’s not what she’s doing. She’s com­ing into this review with a pre­emp­tive bias and prej­ud­ing the artists intent. Try­ing to play it off as a sex­u­al fan­ta­sy for straight white males. When it can be played as just an uncom­fort­able scene estab­lish­ing a vil­lian but nope she auto­mat­i­cal­ly jumps onto the objec­ti­fi­ca­tion card!

    And in the con­text of the UBW ani­me as a whole? This is the show that had Rin’s butt wav­ing in the air. This is the show that put a shot of Rin’s thighs into her con­ver­sa­tion with Archer back in the first episode of this cour. This is the show that put Saber in that dress, with her rear end all but exposed, and insert­ed shots of Saber in that dress into con­ver­sa­tions that didn’t involve her.”

    Oh the hor­ror! Fanser­vice meant to appeal to men?! How horrible! 

    Frankly, all the rail­ing you do against this line of crit­i­cism could just as eas­i­ly be turned around against you for your crit­i­cism of ufotable’s laps­es in atten­tion to the wider con­ti­nu­ity: what does it mat­ter whether Shi­rou has any white hair when he makes a pact with Alaya? What’s the would the point be of show­ing EMIYA with Ciel’s red cape? Anoth­er view­er might say, “These details are mean­ing­less to me; I don’t care about them. It’s unrea­son­able to make any kind of stink about them.”

    Maybe because his crit­i­cism is based on the show and not some mis­in­ter­pre­tat­ed scene that she believes is meant to con­tribute to rape cul­ture of women. Ever think of that?

    You might want to con­sid­er: who is the over­sen­si­tive one right now?”

    Oh the irony of that state­ment. See­ing as how Nash Gier got shit for mere­ly stat­ing his tastes in women or flip­ping out over a fuck­ing t‑shirt. You peo­ple are fuck­ing hilarious. 

    This is far from a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on evil peo­ple doing evil things, and your char­ac­ter­i­za­tion oth­er­wise is noth­ing less than a dis­tor­tion to make a point.”

    Pot call­ing the ket­tle black.

    What does Caster’s sex­u­al fix­a­tion on Saber add to the sto­ry beyond get­ting to see Saber in that dress?”
    It estab­lished that Cast­er thrives on men­tal tor­ture rather than phys­i­cal tor­ture. What could break a female knight’s pride more than being put into a humil­i­at­ing pose and a frilly dress?
    Just as the attempt­ed rape scene estab­lish­es that Shin­ji is a sex­u­al deviant who should be hat­ed. Since he treats women like objects. Noth­ing says vil­lain faster than treat­ing women badly.

    I don’t see how what you care about is intrin­si­cal­ly more impor­tant, or more wor­thy of say­ing, than what she cares about.

    It isn’t but last time I checked ANN has more influ­ence and draws more traf­fic than a Word­Press blog. Hell SJW’s like you have more pow­er over­all in pol­i­tics, media, the court room etc that I find it fun­ny that you guys think your view isn’t important. 

    You’ve con­clud­ed she’s try­ing to incite a reac­tion mere­ly because you vehe­ment­ly dis­agree with her and because she express­es her dis­like of the Fate fan­base. Per­haps there’s a wider prob­lem with peo­ple being unrea­son­able, but this review­er did not come any­where close to say­ing that rape can’t be pre­sent­ed in fic­tion peri­od, or that bad guys can’t do bad things peri­od. She remarked pri­mar­i­ly about the pre­sen­ta­tion of the scene, which you dis­tort­ed into a blan­ket pro­hi­bi­tion on sex­u­al vio­lence in gen­er­al, and to neglect how that pre­sen­ta­tion could play upon anime’s his­to­ry of fetishiz­ing sex­u­al vio­lence is to be will­ful­ly ignorant.”

    See­ing as how SJW’s freak out over every tiny thing that comes their way how is Miko­to sup­posed to act? Espe­cial­ly since after find­ing some­thing prob­lem­at­ic they call for a cen­sor­ship ban. There’s nobody that can be igno­rant about your issues since you nev­er shut the fuck up about them and try to force them down every­one’s throat.

    Think about it. They used sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag. Peo­ple are raped every day, and there’s a show that uses sex­u­al vio­lence to set up a gag.

    I don’t think you have to be “over­sen­si­tive” to think there’s some­thing a lit­tle off about that.”

    Expect when men are set up as props of rape or abuse then you don’t give a fuck. Your bias is so obvi­ous its pathet­ic. God you sound like a reli­gious apologist. 

    Ride on white knight mang­i­na ride on.

  15. Some of the com­ments here are a per­fect illus­tra­tion of what I’m talk­ing about. Peo­ple active­ly dis­miss­ing dis­cus­sion about ele­ments per­ti­nent to the world and sto­ry because their per­son­al hangups and the per­son­al hangups of the review­er in ques­tion are so important.

    Rape and rape imagery in ani­me makes me uncom­fort­able, too. Dif­fer­ence is, I don’t por­tray a show as defi­cient for includ­ing it, because there are more impor­tant things to talk about in media than my per­son­al hangups.

  16. An uncom­fort­able assault scene is an uncom­fort­able assault scene. Unless it’s cel­e­brat­ed, then what is even the matter?

    If Ufotable real­ly want­ed to arouse rape fetishists, they would have threw away the orig­i­nal scene entirely.

    Rin would have been raped, expe­ri­enced body betray­al and moaned in ecsta­sy (and either start­ed to like it or con­tin­ued to hate it depend­ing on how fucked up you peo­ple think Japan is), and then Shin­ji would have left her to cry as the cam­era showed the demor­al­ized vis­age of the destruc­tion of a strong girl.

    But it wasn’t. He just touched her thigh and he got the shit punched out of him by a mytho­log­i­cal hero.

    So you think this assault was too minor to con­sid­er worth any reaction?

    Uh, because that is some­thing Princess Medea would do after all that crap she’s been through in her myth? She want­ed to break Saber’s men­tal pride as a knight. What, you want her to peel off her toe­nails one by one instead? Chop off her limbs?

    Like, what the hell, are you expect­ing every work to write their char­ac­ters out-of-char­ac­ter just because it offends you?

    I nev­er said any­thing of the kind. I said that just because an action is con­sis­tent with the char­ac­ter does­n’t mean that putting that action into the sto­ry improves the sto­ry. You’re telling me what Cast­er wants to accom­plish; I’m well aware of this.

    Are you telling me it’d be okay for Hero­ic Spir­it Simon Legree to take Saber and try to humil­i­ate her by paint­ing her in black­face and treat­ing her as a slave? Mere­ly because it’s con­sis­tent with his character?

    Huh…? Yes it is. Those actu­al­ly direct­ly affects the depth and under­stand­ing of the plot and char­ac­ters, and helps fill in plot holes and untold aspects of the char­ac­ters’ motivations.
    How Shi­rou changed skin col­or and got a tan is an semi-help­ful detail to know for a fan who isn’t just pas­sive­ly inter­est­ed in the Fate/stay night series and wish to talk about it with oth­er fans.

    Where­as gen­der pol­i­tics have fuck­ing noth­ing to do with Fate/stay night.

    How Shi­rou’s hair col­or changed is as rel­e­vant to the sto­ry of him clash­ing against Archer as gen­der pol­i­tics of Japan in 2006 is–it’s not rel­e­vant one iota. It’s a mean­ing­less fluff detail that any­one who looks at the piece can rec­og­nize as mere­ly a nec­es­sary cog­wheel to jus­ti­fy Archer’s appear­ance, to jus­ti­fy that bit of mis­di­rec­tion meant to fool the audi­ence. It does­n’t mean anything.

    But I’m not ask­ing peo­ple not to be inter­est­ed. I’m not telling peo­ple that what they’re look­ing for in fic­tion needs to mat­ter or be rel­e­vant to be worth their inter­est. You are.

    And even if I take the premise you’re pushing–that an issue has to mat­ter to the sto­ry, more or less, to be worth com­ment­ing upon–Nasu’s atti­tudes toward women in gen­er­al can be of inter­est. His atti­tude toward Saber sheds light on issues he had writ­ing Fate route, for example.

    Yes, because the rape wasn’t cel­e­brat­ed and the rapist wasn’t fuck­ing giv­en a pat on the back. He gets punched in the face.

    He’ll get stabbed and turned into a mon­stros­i­ty lat­er too.

    He’ll get mur­dered by his lit­tle fos­ter sis­ter who he’s raped all his life.

    He got stepped on by Berserk­er in the Fate route.

    Of course hav­ing his grimy fin­gers up her skirt is annoy­ing. You’re sup­posed to hate Shin­ji as a vil­lain. He’s not some throw­away harm­less gag vil­lain, he’s an actu­al threat with no com­pas­sion in all of the routes. I got annoyed when my favorite char­ac­ter had her heart ripped out too. This isn’t a sto­ry about hold­ing hands around a bon­fire and singing Kum­baya, be pre­pared to get shocked/disgusted or don’t watch at all.

    A sex­u­al assault does­n’t need to be cel­e­brat­ed by the char­ac­ters on the screen for the nar­ra­tive to endorse it or tol­er­ate it as a means of sex­u­al gratification.

    What is the sit­u­a­tion here? Shin­ji is a prick. He’s always been a prick, but right now, he’s sec­ond fid­dle to Gil­gamesh and thinks he’s in con­trol when he’s not.

    You want the audi­ence to hate a char­ac­ter? Make him into a rapist. Make him into an abuser. It’s cheap and easy and does­n’t take long to devel­op. Every­body hates rapists. Every­body wants to see them defeat­ed. You just snap your fin­gers, and they’re a vil­lain, and beyond that desire to rape and vio­late, there does­n’t need to be much there. There isn’t that much there for Shinji–not that mat­ters in this route, anyway.

    Why, do you think, did the review­er approve of a rape scene in Maria the Vir­gin Witch but not here? Yes, not show­ing the actu­al attempt­ed vio­la­tion direct­ly is part of it. That indi­cates a cer­tain com­pas­sion and respect for the tar­get that oth­er media don’t do. But just as impor­tant is tying the rapist’s moti­va­tions into a greater ide­o­log­i­cal frame­work. The rapist in Maria is a cog in a larg­er orga­ni­za­tion; he’s just fol­low­ing orders and try­ing to advance in pow­er and stature by doing so. The intend­ed vic­tim is a mav­er­ick, work­ing out­side the con­fines of author­i­ty, and for that, she must be pun­ished. The attempt­ed rape is a direct clash of those ideologies.

    But here? Shin­ji’s just a twist­ed dude.

    That’s the prob­lem, with both Shin­ji and Cast­er here. There’s noth­ing beneath the sur­face of their sex­u­al vio­la­tions. There’s noth­ing the sto­ry is play­ing on. It does­n’t tie into a greater theme. It’s just “shock­ing.” Shock­ing with­out any substance.

    Is the review­er right to sus­pect that, with­out any sub­stance to back up Shin­ji’s assault on Rin here, that the moti­va­tion must be titi­la­tion? Per­haps not. I read much more cal­lous indif­fer­ence in the mat­ter than any­thing else. Sex­u­al assault? Sure, why not? That’s the atti­tude, isn’t it? It’s treat­ed with only slight­ly more weight than a car run­ning over a dog in the street.

    ???? What bizarro world did I land in where con­fus­ing view­ers is a good thing?

    I mere­ly sum­ma­rized what you stat­ed would be the neg­a­tive con­se­quences of ufotable fail­ing to get all those nit­ty-grit­ty details just right.

    In a show that revolves around a rit­u­al that involves mur­der! I sure do have my pri­or­i­ties straight!”

    There’s a rea­son mur­der vic­tims don’t com­plain about the over­sat­u­ra­tion of mur­der in media. They’re kin­da dead.

    But rape vic­tims? There are plen­ty of those float­ing around. Vic­tims of sex­u­al assault? Unwant­ed touch­ing? Vio­la­tions of all man­ner of human decen­cy? They’re still around.

    You’re basi­cal­ly say­ing that you val­ue a flat depic­tion of sex­u­al assault, with­out any intel­lec­tu­al sub­stance behind it, over those peo­ple. Real peo­ple. Real human beings. All just so you don’t have to admit that Nasu could’ve done better.

    Rape can be uncom­fort­able as long as it doesn’t offend. ◔_◔

    Bad guys can do bad things as long as they keep to per­son­al bound­aries like good lit­tle bad guys!

    I nev­er made any caveat involv­ing “per­son­al boundaries.”

    A good ani­me has incon­sis­tent char­ac­ters. Gotcha.

    You’re act­ing as though Shin­ji not assault­ing Rin would be incon­sis­tent with his char­ac­ter. Or that Cast­er not dress­ing up Saber would be incon­sis­tent with her character.

    Or that, you know, you’re act­ing as though Nasu did­n’t design Shin­ji, that he did­n’t decide to put Cast­er into the sto­ry and did­n’t know what he would use them for. The char­ac­ters are not immutable con­structs that bind the author to do what is con­sis­tent with their nature. The author can change char­ac­ters he orig­i­nal­ly designed how­ev­er he sees fit. He does­n’t have to make Shin­ji a lech­er­ous rapist if he does­n’t want to. He does­n’t have to have Cast­er try to sex­u­al­ly humil­i­ate Saber if he does­n’t want to.

    Nasu want­ed both of those.

    That’s the inescapable conclusion.

    Nasu want­ed Shin­ji to assault Rin. He want­ed Cast­er to humil­i­ate Saber.

    And I, and ayone else, have the absolute free­dom to crit­i­cize him for it. Defend­ing these choic­es with mere “con­sis­ten­cy” is to act as though Nasu had no oth­er choice. In Shin­ji’s case, that’s total­ly inde­fen­si­ble. He designed Shin­ji. He has absolute free­dom there. In Cast­er’s case, he was under no oblig­a­tion to choose Medea to be the Cast­er servant.

    And for what? To make Shin­ji and Cast­er more evil. That’s it. That’s all it is. To make us hate them and root for their downfall.

    Clear­ly you think these actions are not enough to be con­sid­ered ver­boten, that a char­ac­ter must do far more sense­less evil before you con­sid­er the action too heinous to jus­ti­fy mere­ly the effect that the offend­er is con­sid­ered evil for it, and no oth­er nar­ra­tive pur­pose. Maybe you think that should be just mur­der. Or vio­lent tor­ture. Or degrad­ing behav­iors and indig­ni­ties far beyond putting some­one in a reveal­ing out­fit against their will or touch­ing them with ulti­mate intent to rape. By all means, you tell me what that line is for you, if it even exists at all.

    It’s. A. Series. That. Has. Murder.

    I ful­ly appre­ci­ate that you’re say­ing folks are undu­ly con­cerned with rape and sex­u­al vio­lence and gen­der pol­i­tics, and that they’re not con­cerned enough about mur­der shows, in your opin­ion, that such peo­ple are argu­ing from a posi­tion of bad faith or warped per­spec­tive or whatnot.

    I fun­da­men­tal­ly dis­agree with the notion that we should treat sex­u­al vio­lence in media as casu­al­ly as we treat oth­er forms of vio­lence right now, and I’d be will­ing to enter­tain the notion that we should treat non-sex­u­al vio­lence in media more seriously–perhaps, yes, as seri­ous­ly as I’m treat­ing sex­u­al vio­lence in these arguments.

    But I would apply the same test I sug­gest­ed above. Does the vio­lence serve a pur­pose beyond mere­ly paint­ing the per­pe­tra­tor as evil or shock­ing us with their actions?

    Orphans zomb­i­fied? No prob­lem with it. That Shi­rou would’ve been one of those vic­tims makes the sit­u­a­tion intense­ly per­son­al and moti­vat­ing, more so than know­ing who did it.
    A woman got her neck twist­ed? It hints there’s some­one else around far more pow­er­ful than either Shi­rou or Rin antic­i­pat­ed. Prob­a­bly did­n’t need to be done that way, though.
    Ilya? The eye slash was sense­less, just as sense­less as Shin­ji and Caster.
    Berserk­er? They’re in fair com­bat. Only the last kill may have been drawn out in the ani­me to serve only the pur­pose of shock­ing people.
    Cast­er, Kuzu­ki, and Archer? These are far more sur­pris­ing for the fact that Archer can do such things.

    I could go on, but note that Shin­ji try­ing to rape Rin or Cast­er putting Saber in that dress? Nei­ther of those are key plot points. Rid­er, Berserk­er, Cast­er, and Kuzu­ki? Those def­i­nite­ly are. The worst of the ones above is Ilya’s eyes. I con­sid­er that an excel­lent non-sex­u­al exam­ple of gra­tu­itous violence.

    Feel free to put forth your own test or con­cept for what is gra­tu­itous or with­out intrin­sic value.

    1. So you think this assault was too minor to con­sid­er worth any reaction?

      It’s too minor to fuck­ing accuse the stu­dio of try­ing to arouse the male audience. 

      Plus, why would a rape fetishist get off on rape not even happening?

      Please think.

      I nev­er said any­thing of the kind. I said that just because an action is con­sis­tent with the char­ac­ter does­n’t mean that putting that action into the sto­ry improves the sto­ry. You’re telling me what Cast­er wants to accom­plish; I’m well aware of this.

      And I’m telling you it’s fuck­ing stu­pid to expect a Ser­vant like Blue­beard not to do things they would do just because it offends you.

      I did­n’t think him killing chil­dren in Fate/Zero was very pret­ty but IT MADE SENSE. What, do you want one of those vil­lains that let the heroes slip past the jaws of death because he’s “let­ting them live this time! Muhahaha!”?

      Char­ac­ters should act the way they are sup­posed to act. I’m start­ing to think you peo­ple actu­al­ly did expect Shin­ji to bake Rin a batch of cookies.

      Are you telling me it’d be okay for Hero­ic Spir­it Simon Legree to take Saber and try to humil­i­ate her by paint­ing her in black­face and treat­ing her as a slave? Mere­ly because it’s con­sis­tent with his character?

      Because that would have not done any­thing to break Saber’s men­tal resis­tance of the Com­mand Spell. If you were actu­al­ly pay­ing atten­tion to the sto­ry, Saber is able to resist Cast­er’s Com­mand Spell because of her men­tal resis­tance to mag­ic, and the whole rea­son Cast­er does that bull­shit in the first place was to break her spirit.

      Fuck­ing pay atten­tion to the story.

      How Shirou’s hair col­or changed is as rel­e­vant to the sto­ry of him clash­ing against Archer as gen­der pol­i­tics of Japan in 2006 is–it’s not rel­e­vant one iota. It’s a mean­ing­less fluff detail that any­one who looks at the piece can rec­og­nize as mere­ly a nec­es­sary cog­wheel to jus­ti­fy Archer’s appear­ance, to jus­ti­fy that bit of mis­di­rec­tion meant to fool the audi­ence. It doesn’t mean anything.

      You just said why it was rel­e­vant to Fate/stay night, dip­shit. Mage­craft is an arti­fi­cial means of reen­act­ing mir­a­cles that has the poten­tial to alter a human’s look through exces­sive use.

      Shi­rou’s skin got dark­ened and his hair pig­ments died because of his con­stant attempts at mas­ter­ing his one mag­ic to its full poten­tial. With­stood pain to cre­ate many weapons. When Archer Shi­rou makes a con­tract with Alaya at the nuclear plant, the bet­ter deci­sion would have been to give him at least some white hair, because he’s already been through a lot of shit at that point and white hair is a great use of canon to show that visu­al­ly. It’s more rel­e­vant to Fate/stay night than fuck­ing gen­der pol­i­tics, and Shi­rou’s chang­ing skin and hair through exces­sive use of pro­jec­tion is a detail that specif­i­cal­ly appears in oth­er Fate works.

      But obvi­ous­ly some­one like you who bare­ly has but a pass­ing inter­est in the fran­chise would­n’t care. It’s just a quick way for you fucks to shove gen­der issues down every­one’s throat. Can­cer, can­cer every­where. It has no mean­ing for you because it does­n’t have a dick or vagina.

      And even if I take the premise you’re pushing–that an issue has to mat­ter to the sto­ry, more or less, to be worth com­ment­ing upon–Nasu’s atti­tudes toward women in gen­er­al can be of inter­est. His atti­tude toward Saber sheds light on issues he had writ­ing Fate route, for example.

      A major­i­ty of the strongest char­ac­ters from the Naus­verse (Tsuk­i­hime, Mahoyo, Kara no Kyoukai, Fate, etc.) are pre­dom­i­nant­ly female, so the asser­tion that Nasu is a sex­ist is absurd.

      Shi­rou in the Fate route was forced to take a stu­pid chau­vin­is­tic stance because he could­n’t bring him­self to tell Saber the real rea­son why he could­n’t let her fight (his deep-root­ed hero­ism com­plex being trig­gered the night Saber got curb­stomped by Berserk­er twice), so he resort­ed to using an excuse which con­formed to what his cul­ture dic­tat­ed as nat­ur­al. He real­izes his stu­pid­i­ty in the mid­dle of the route.

      The Fate route was pret­ty vanil­la and not as great as the oth­er routes, but not because Nasu is a sex­ist, it was because at the time he was try­ing to push for a boy-meets-girl sto­ry. Writ­ers, gasp, improve, and look­ing back on it, he’d rewrite it if he ever gets the chance. Like what he’s doing with Tsuk­i­hime.

      But I’m not ask­ing peo­ple not to be inter­est­ed. I’m not telling peo­ple that what they’re look­ing for in fic­tion needs to mat­ter or be rel­e­vant to be worth their inter­est. You are.

      Yes, I am such a lunatic for expect­ing dis­cus­sions of a work to be about the work, rather than about per­son­al hangups from peo­ple who should­n’t be indulging in these things to begin with. Fuck me.

      A sex­u­al assault doesn’t need to be cel­e­brat­ed by the char­ac­ters on the screen for the nar­ra­tive to endorse it or tol­er­ate it as a means of sex­u­al gratification.

      SHINJI GETS PUNCHED IN THE FACE FOR ATTEMPTING TO RAPE RIN.

      HE GETS KILLED BY SAKURA IN HEAVEN’S FEEL WHEN HE ATTEMPTS TO RAPE HER (FOR THE 100TH TIME)

      How does that endorse any­thing about rape? It’s say­ing THIS GUY IS A HORRIBLE HUMAN BEING, RAPE IS NOT GOOD.

      What is the sit­u­a­tion here? Shin­ji is a prick. He’s always been a prick, but right now, he’s sec­ond fid­dle to Gil­gamesh and thinks he’s in con­trol when he’s not.

      You want the audi­ence to hate a char­ac­ter? Make him into a rapist. Make him into an abuser. It’s cheap and easy and doesn’t take long to devel­op. Every­body hates rapists. Every­body wants to see them defeat­ed. You just snap your fin­gers, and they’re a vil­lain, and beyond that desire to rape and vio­late, there doesn’t need to be much there. There isn’t that much there for Shinji–not that mat­ters in this route, anyway.

      Why, do you think, did the review­er approve of a rape scene in Maria the Vir­gin Witch but not here? Yes, not show­ing the actu­al attempt­ed vio­la­tion direct­ly is part of it. That indi­cates a cer­tain com­pas­sion and respect for the tar­get that oth­er media don’t do. But just as impor­tant is tying the rapist’s moti­va­tions into a greater ide­o­log­i­cal frame­work. The rapist in Maria is a cog in a larg­er orga­ni­za­tion; he’s just fol­low­ing orders and try­ing to advance in pow­er and stature by doing so. The intend­ed vic­tim is a mav­er­ick, work­ing out­side the con­fines of author­i­ty, and for that, she must be pun­ished. The attempt­ed rape is a direct clash of those ideologies.

      But here? Shinji’s just a twist­ed dude.

      That’s the prob­lem, with both Shin­ji and Cast­er here. There’s noth­ing beneath the sur­face of their sex­u­al vio­la­tions. There’s noth­ing the sto­ry is play­ing on. It doesn’t tie into a greater theme. It’s just “shock­ing.” Shock­ing with­out any substance.

      Is the review­er right to sus­pect that, with­out any sub­stance to back up Shinji’s assault on Rin here, that the moti­va­tion must be titi­la­tion? Per­haps not. I read much more cal­lous indif­fer­ence in the mat­ter than any­thing else. Sex­u­al assault? Sure, why not? That’s the atti­tude, isn’t it? It’s treat­ed with only slight­ly more weight than a car run­ning over a dog in the street.

      Oh god, this is the type of sec­ondary that makes every oth­er decent sec­ondary look bad. There is a rea­son why Shin­ji is such a sociopath, every­one will find out in the Heav­en’s Feel film(s), hope­ful­ly. But right now, what oth­er rea­son do you need for Shin­ji to assault Rin oth­er than the fact that HE IS A SOCIPATH AND HAS ADMIRED RIN FOR A LONG TIME?

      Only for the shock fac­tor”? Did you miss the part where Shi­rou is fuck­ing pissed that Archer left one of their love inter­ests in the hands of a bas­tard that’d have his way with her? Some­thing that the cur­rent Shi­rou would nev­er do? Tohsa­ka was in dan­ger and Lancer need­ed to get the fuck over there before some­thing happened.

      Rap­ing some­one to increase their sta­tus, rap­ing some­one because they want to have their way with the vic­tim, holy shit, rape is rape and there are nev­er good rea­sons to fuck­ing rape some­body. And here, he does­n’t even do that. He just touch­es her thighs before get­ting punched by Lancer. It’s not like the the view­er is sup­posed to start hat­ing Shin­ji at this point either. He’s already sup­posed to cross the line for the view­er dur­ing the Fate route where he sucks all the stu­dent dry of mana and sends Taiga to the hos­pi­tal. Uotable rec­om­mends read­ing the Fate route before watch­ing the UBW ani­me, like its VN ver­sion. The review­er fuck­ing skimmed through it to make fun of lines she thought was sexist.

      I nev­er made any caveat involv­ing “per­son­al boundaries.”

      The review­er her­self said in her review of Maria The Vir­gin that these rape scenes are okay as long the keep it with­in per­son­al boundaries.

      Which means she expects writ­ers to walk on eggshells all the time for the sake of her own per­son­al hangups. Oh boo hoo, stay away from these things if they offend you this much. The world does­n’t revolve around you people.

      You’re act­ing as though Shin­ji not assault­ing Rin would be incon­sis­tent with his char­ac­ter. Or that Cast­er not dress­ing up Saber would be incon­sis­tent with her character.

      Or that, you know, you’re act­ing as though Nasu didn’t design Shin­ji, that he didn’t decide to put Cast­er into the sto­ry and didn’t know what he would use them for. The char­ac­ters are not immutable con­structs that bind the author to do what is con­sis­tent with their nature. The author can change char­ac­ters he orig­i­nal­ly designed how­ev­er he sees fit. He doesn’t have to make Shin­ji a lech­er­ous rapist if he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t have to have Cast­er try to sex­u­al­ly humil­i­ate Saber if he doesn’t want to.

      Nasu want­ed both of those.

      That’s the inescapable conclusion.

      Nasu want­ed Shin­ji to assault Rin. He want­ed Cast­er to humil­i­ate Saber.

      And I, and ayone else, have the absolute free­dom to crit­i­cize him for it. Defend­ing these choic­es with mere “con­sis­ten­cy” is to act as though Nasu had no oth­er choice. In Shinji’s case, that’s total­ly inde­fen­si­ble. He designed Shin­ji. He has absolute free­dom there. In Caster’s case, he was under no oblig­a­tion to choose Medea to be the Cast­er servant.

      And for what? To make Shin­ji and Cast­er more evil. That’s it. That’s all it is. To make us hate them and root for their downfall.

      Clear­ly you think these actions are not enough to be con­sid­ered ver­boten, that a char­ac­ter must do far more sense­less evil before you con­sid­er the action too heinous to jus­ti­fy mere­ly the effect that the offend­er is con­sid­ered evil for it, and no oth­er nar­ra­tive pur­pose. Maybe you think that should be just mur­der. Or vio­lent tor­ture. Or degrad­ing behav­iors and indig­ni­ties far beyond putting some­one in a reveal­ing out­fit against their will or touch­ing them with ulti­mate intent to rape. By all means, you tell me what that line is for you, if it even exists at all.

      Your pro-cen­sor­ship bull­shit is the exact rea­son why I wrote this post to begin with.

      There should­n’t be a moral line for fic­tion, it’s FICTIONAL. You SJWs and your god damned thought polic­ing. Good luck find­ing char­ac­ters from mythol­o­gy that don’t con­tain things you spoiled Amer­i­can brats would think is offen­sive by today’s standards.

      There’s a rea­son mur­der vic­tims don’t com­plain about the over­sat­u­ra­tion of mur­der in media. They’re kin­da dead.

      But rape vic­tims? There are plen­ty of those float­ing around. Vic­tims of sex­u­al assault? Unwant­ed touch­ing? Vio­la­tions of all man­ner of human decen­cy? They’re still around.

      You’re basi­cal­ly say­ing that you val­ue a flat depic­tion of sex­u­al assault, with­out any intel­lec­tu­al sub­stance behind it, over those peo­ple. Real peo­ple. Real human beings. All just so you don’t have to admit that Nasu could’ve done better

      You are a hyp­o­crit­i­cal idiot beyond rea­son­ing. Mur­der vic­tims are dead so peo­ple can’t get offend­ed durrrrrrrr

      How about the mur­der vic­tim’s fam­i­lies, genius? Or sur­vivors who wit­nessed bru­tal mur­ders? Or chil­dren who were forced to com­mit mur­der at some point of their life? That is the most igno­rant, heart­less thing any­one could ever say under the guise of social jus­tice. Fuck you.

      Guess what? Your self-enti­tled bull­shit applies to almost any­one. If we were too hung up over peo­ple being offend­ed by any­thing we cre­ate, we would­n’t cre­ate any­thing at all. I did­n’t want to get into this, but just FYI, you’re talk­ing to a per­son who was tak­en advan­tage of as a child right now. Go to hell. (I’m not “trig­gered”, I’m fuck­ing pissed.)

      I ful­ly appre­ci­ate that you’re say­ing folks are undu­ly con­cerned with rape and sex­u­al vio­lence and gen­der pol­i­tics, and that they’re not con­cerned enough about mur­der shows, in your opin­ion, that such peo­ple are argu­ing from a posi­tion of bad faith or warped per­spec­tive or whatnot.

      I fun­da­men­tal­ly dis­agree with the notion that we should treat sex­u­al vio­lence in media as casu­al­ly as we treat oth­er forms of vio­lence right now, and I’d be will­ing to enter­tain the notion that we should treat non-sex­u­al vio­lence in media more seriously–perhaps, yes, as seri­ous­ly as I’m treat­ing sex­u­al vio­lence in these arguments.

      But I would apply the same test I sug­gest­ed above. Does the vio­lence serve a pur­pose beyond mere­ly paint­ing the per­pe­tra­tor as evil or shock­ing us with their actions?

      Orphans zomb­i­fied? No prob­lem with it. That Shi­rou would’ve been one of those vic­tims makes the sit­u­a­tion intense­ly per­son­al and moti­vat­ing, more so than know­ing who did it.
      A woman got her neck twist­ed? It hints there’s some­one else around far more pow­er­ful than either Shi­rou or Rin antic­i­pat­ed. Prob­a­bly didn’t need to be done that way, though.
      Ilya? The eye slash was sense­less, just as sense­less as Shin­ji and Caster.
      Berserk­er? They’re in fair com­bat. Only the last kill may have been drawn out in the ani­me to serve only the pur­pose of shock­ing people.
      Cast­er, Kuzu­ki, and Archer? These are far more sur­pris­ing for the fact that Archer can do such things.

      I could go on, but note that Shin­ji try­ing to rape Rin or Cast­er putting Saber in that dress? Nei­ther of those are key plot points. Rid­er, Berserk­er, Cast­er, and Kuzu­ki? Those def­i­nite­ly are. The worst of the ones above is Ilya’s eyes. I con­sid­er that an excel­lent non-sex­u­al exam­ple of gra­tu­itous violence.

      Feel free to put forth your own test or con­cept for what is gra­tu­itous or with­out intrin­sic value.

      So you real­ly do want to lim­it a writer’s right to cre­ate, and would pre­fer to have noth­ing but sto­ries where peo­ple shake hands and no real dan­ger exists. With your rad­i­cal prud­ish­ness in play, no writer would have the balls to try any­thing bold.

      I’m fuck­ing done with this dis­cus­sion. Enter­tain­ment is dead.

      (P.S. You appar­ent­ly can’t com­pre­hend that Illya’s death was sad­der and less bit­ter BECAUSE she was blind.)

      @Timeenforceranubis: Some of the com­ments here are a per­fect illus­tra­tion of what I’m talk­ing about. Peo­ple active­ly dis­miss­ing dis­cus­sion about ele­ments per­ti­nent to the world and sto­ry because their per­son­al hangups and the per­son­al hangups of the review­er in ques­tion are so important.

      Rape and rape imagery in ani­me makes me uncom­fort­able, too. Dif­fer­ence is, I don’t por­tray a show as defi­cient for includ­ing it, because there are more impor­tant things to talk about in media than my per­son­al hangups.

      ^THANK YOU

  17. It’s too minor to fuck­ing accuse the stu­dio of try­ing to arouse the male audience.

    Plus, why would a rape fetishist get off on rape not even happening?

    Please think.

    It’s pre­sent­ing the vic­tim as a sex­u­al object at a time of vio­la­tion. There is sim­ply no oth­er rea­son to do so oth­er than titilation.

    And I’m telling you it’s fuck­ing stu­pid to expect a Ser­vant like Blue­beard not to do things they would do just because it offends you.

    I didn’t think him killing chil­dren in Fate/Zero was very pret­ty but IT MADE SENSE. What, do you want one of those vil­lains that let the heroes slip past the jaws of death because he’s “let­ting them live this time! Muhahaha!”?

    Char­ac­ters should act the way they are sup­posed to act. I’m start­ing to think you peo­ple actu­al­ly did expect Shin­ji to bake Rin a batch of cookies.

    Char­ac­ters act the way their writ­ers write them. You keep pre­sent­ing this argu­ment as though writ­ing the char­ac­ters con­sis­tent­ly absolves the author of all respon­si­bil­i­ty for their actions, as though what they do and how they do it in no way reflects upon the author’s atti­tudes and opinions.

    Shin­ji touch­ing Rin like that is not, in itself, an author’s endorse­ment of sex­u­al assault. Clear­ly Nasu thinks such things are bad, but not bad enough to avoid pre­sent­ing the vic­tim as an object of sex­u­al desire not just for the abuser but for the audience.

    Because that would have not done any­thing to break Saber’s men­tal resis­tance of the Com­mand Spell. If you were actu­al­ly pay­ing atten­tion to the sto­ry, Saber is able to resist Caster’s Com­mand Spell because of her men­tal resis­tance to mag­ic, and the whole rea­son Cast­er does that bull­shit in the first place was to break her spirit.

    Fuck­ing pay atten­tion to the story.

    You say this as though I was mak­ing any point about how effec­tive this would be on Saber, neat­ly dodg­ing the actu­al argu­ment: that such an effort would be wide­ly seen as vile and reflec­tive on the author as noth­ing short of delib­er­ate anga­ton­ism of race relations.

    You just said why it was rel­e­vant to Fate/stay night, dip­shit. Mage­craft is an arti­fi­cial means of reen­act­ing mir­a­cles that has the poten­tial to alter a human’s look through exces­sive use.

    Shirou’s skin got dark­ened and his hair pig­ments died because of his con­stant attempts at mas­ter­ing his one mag­ic to its full poten­tial. With­stood pain to cre­ate many weapons. When Archer Shi­rou makes a con­tract with Alaya at the nuclear plant, the bet­ter deci­sion would have been to give him at least some white hair, because he’s already been through a lot of shit at that point and white hair is a great use of canon to show that visu­al­ly. It’s more rel­e­vant to Fate/stay night than fuck­ing gen­der pol­i­tics, and Shirou’s chang­ing skin and hair through exces­sive use of pro­jec­tion is a detail that specif­i­cal­ly appears in oth­er Fate works.

    But obvi­ous­ly some­one like you who bare­ly has but a pass­ing inter­est in the fran­chise wouldn’t care. It’s just a quick way for you fucks to shove gen­der issues down everyone’s throat. Can­cer, can­cer every­where. It has no mean­ing for you because it doesn’t have a dick or vagina.

    It’s more rel­e­vant to you. None of these details are essen­tial ingre­di­ents to telling the sto­ry of a boy fac­ing his future self. Any fan­ta­sy sto­ry is full of such things: lit­tle details that have to be pinned down for inter­nal con­sis­ten­cy but whose choic­es have no real sig­nif­i­cance or mean­ing. That’s what a great amount of world­build­ing is, when tak­en to an extreme.

    A major­i­ty of the strongest char­ac­ters from the Naus­verse (Tsuk­i­hime, Mahoyo, Kara no Kyoukai, Fate, etc.) are pre­dom­i­nant­ly female, so the asser­tion that Nasu is a sex­ist is absurd.

    Shi­rou in the Fate route was forced to take a stu­pid chau­vin­is­tic stance because he couldn’t bring him­self to tell Saber the real rea­son why he couldn’t let her fight (his deep-root­ed hero­ism com­plex being trig­gered the night Saber got curb­stomped by Berserk­er twice), so he resort­ed to using an excuse which con­formed to what his cul­ture dic­tat­ed as nat­ur­al. He real­izes his stu­pid­i­ty in the mid­dle of the route.

    The Fate route was pret­ty vanil­la and not as great as the oth­er routes, but not because Nasu is a sex­ist, it was because at the time he was try­ing to push for a boy-meets-girl sto­ry. Writ­ers, gasp, improve, and look­ing back on it, he’d rewrite it if he ever gets the chance. Like what he’s doing with Tsukihime. 

    Who said Nasu was sex­ist? Not the review­er (said the series was sex­ist, or that Nasu’s con­cept for Saber’s route was a “sex­ist propo­si­tion”). I cer­tain­ly have said noth­ing of the kind.

    Though I will say this: I think peo­ple are either more or less sex­ist and not “total­ly sex­ist” or “total­ly not sex­ist.” Nobody’s per­fect­ly lack­ing in biases.

    Yes, I am such a lunatic for expect­ing dis­cus­sions of a work to be about the work, rather than about per­son­al hangups from peo­ple who shouldn’t be indulging in these things to begin with. Fuck me.

    Are we not talk­ing about a work’s tone and atti­tude toward women and sex­u­al vio­lence? Is that not some­thing that is about the work?

    Whether peo­ple like it or not is per­son­al, yes. Some peo­ple like heavy world­build­ing pieces. Oth­er peo­ple don’t. That’s per­son­al, too.

    Some peo­ple like heavy action and oth­ers don’t.

    All these things are part of the work. No audi­ence mem­ber put them there. You keep com­plain­ing about peo­ple inject­ing gen­der pol­i­tics into a work. That’s not how it hap­pens. The work’s tone and atti­tude toward such sub­jects is already there, and all peo­ple are doing is ana­lyz­ing and fer­ret­ing it out.

    The dif­fer­ence between that and some­thing you feel mat­ters? That you don’t care about it. It’s that sim­ple. You don’t care about it. You wrote this whole post and con­tin­ued this argu­ment mere­ly because some oth­er peo­ple on the inter­net care about some­thing you feel they should­n’t, and they’re using that as an avenue for crit­i­cism you feel is unjustified–or even conspiratorial–only because you don’t care about what they care about.

    No lit­mus test you sug­gest of a point of inter­est being “about” the work or not will con­vince me that such con­cerns are invalid. I may say they’re not uni­ver­sal­ly shared or appre­ci­at­ed, but that’s all.

    Oh god, this is the type of sec­ondary that makes every oth­er decent sec­ondary look bad. There is a rea­son why Shin­ji is such a sociopath, every­one will find out in the Heaven’s Feel film(s), hope­ful­ly. But right now, what oth­er rea­son do you need for Shin­ji to assault Rin oth­er than the fact that HE IS A SOCIPATH AND HAS ADMIRED RIN FOR A LONG TIME?

    Only for the shock fac­tor”? Did you miss the part where Shi­rou is fuck­ing pissed that Archer left one of their love inter­ests in the hands of a bas­tard that’d have his way with her? Some­thing that the cur­rent Shi­rou would nev­er do? Tohsa­ka was in dan­ger and Lancer need­ed to get the fuck over there before some­thing happened.

    Rap­ing some­one to increase their sta­tus, rap­ing some­one because they want to have their way with the vic­tim, holy shit, rape is rape and there are nev­er good rea­sons to fuck­ing rape some­body. And here, he doesn’t even do that. He just touch­es her thighs before get­ting punched by Lancer. It’s not like the the view­er is sup­posed to start hat­ing Shin­ji at this point either. He’s already sup­posed to cross the line for the view­er dur­ing the Fate route where he sucks all the stu­dent dry of mana and sends Taiga to the hos­pi­tal. Uotable rec­om­mends read­ing the Fate route before watch­ing the UBW ani­me, like its VN ver­sion. The review­er fuck­ing skimmed through it to make fun of lines she thought was sexist.

    Shin­ji’s issues are not rel­e­vant on a the­mat­ic lev­el for this route. He is so ancil­lary that Gil­gamesh could’ve found him walk­ing on the street to turn him into a meat monstrosity.

    So Shi­rou reacts to that. That hard­ly mat­ters as much as every­thing else going on in that scene. Think from a writer’s stand­point for a minute: why must Shin­ji be there? So Kotomine can be involved with­out Lancer know­ing he’s involved. One can eas­i­ly rearrange the scene so that Kotomine is there from the begin­ning and Archer mere­ly does­n’t men­tion who exact­ly is guard­ing her. You lose Shi­rou’s reac­tion to that, but if that avoids a point­less sex­u­al assault scene? I do that in a heart­beat. Or, you know, I write Shin­ji to have a more inter­est­ing idea in mind to prove his supe­ri­or­i­ty to Rin.

    Because that’s what Shin­ji is real­ly about, right? It’s about him prov­ing his supe­ri­or­i­ty to Saku­ra and Rin. They may be greater mages, but he can still rape them.

    That’s all well and good, but in this route, that has noth­ing to tie into. In HF? That’s dif­fer­ent. At best, I could say that Shin­ji’s assault scene here hints at his issues in HF. I still think it’s too dis­con­nect­ed from that to be worth it.

    The review­er her­self said in her review of Maria The Vir­gin that these rape scenes are okay as long the keep it with­in per­son­al boundaries.

    Which means she expects writ­ers to walk on eggshells all the time for the sake of her own per­son­al hangups. Oh boo hoo, stay away from these things if they offend you this much. The world doesn’t revolve around you people.

    I’d be inter­est­ed to hear if you ever watch that rape scene and think it’s any­thing like “walk­ing on eggshells.”

    Your pro-cen­sor­ship bull­shit is the exact rea­son why I wrote this post to begin with.

    There shouldn’t be a moral line for fic­tion, it’s FICTIONAL. You SJWs and your god damned thought polic­ing. Good luck find­ing char­ac­ters from mythol­o­gy that don’t con­tain things you spoiled Amer­i­can brats would think is offen­sive by today’s standards.

    I’ve already made clear I don’t object to an assault scene that has the intel­lec­tu­al and the­mat­ic back­ing of the sto­ry, nor does the review­er. That’s a far cry from cen­sor­ship. That’s criticism.

    You are a hyp­o­crit­i­cal idiot beyond rea­son­ing. Mur­der vic­tims are dead so peo­ple can’t get offend­ed durrrrrrrr

    How about the mur­der victim’s fam­i­lies, genius? Or sur­vivors who wit­nessed bru­tal mur­ders? Or chil­dren who were forced to com­mit mur­der at some point of their life? That is the most igno­rant, heart­less thing any­one could ever say under the guise of social jus­tice. Fuck you.

    Guess what? Your self-enti­tled bull­shit applies to almost any­one. If we were too hung up over peo­ple being offend­ed by any­thing we cre­ate, we wouldn’t cre­ate any­thing at all. I didn’t want to get into this, but just FYI, you’re talk­ing to a per­son who was tak­en advan­tage of as a child right now. Go to hell. (I’m not “trig­gered”, I’m fuck­ing pissed.)

    Then you have my sympathies.

    I still main­tain that sex­u­al assault sur­vivors are far more ubiq­ui­tous than wit­ness­es to mur­der or child sol­diers. That does not mean that their con­cerns are more valid mere­ly by sheer num­bers. It just means they can be louder.

    Peo­ple dis­lik­ing some­thing they see in media is a nat­ur­al reac­tion. It’s up to con­tent cre­ators to decide if they want to lis­ten or not, and peo­ple can crti­cize them (or crit­i­cize the crit­ics) accord­ing­ly, just as I’m crit­i­ciz­ing you.

    But you’re the one sug­gest­ing that some sec­tion of crit­i­cism be ver­boten and instant­ly dis­re­gard­ed in all cas­es. I have not sug­gest­ed that some form of con­tent be for­bid­den absolute­ly, nor has the reviewer.

    So you real­ly do want to lim­it a writer’s right to cre­ate, and would pre­fer to have noth­ing but sto­ries where peo­ple shake hands and no real dan­ger exists. With your rad­i­cal prud­ish­ness in play, no writer would have the balls to try any­thing bold.

    I’m fuck­ing done with this dis­cus­sion. Enter­tain­ment is dead.

    (P.S. You appar­ent­ly can’t com­pre­hend that Illya’s death was sad­der and less bit­ter BECAUSE she was blind.)

    Nobody has the right to be free from crit­i­cism. I said what I think peo­ple should do, delin­eat­ing what I will crit­i­cize them for if they don’t. That is all.

    Again, you push my wish­es and oth­ers’ to an extreme for the pur­pose of ridicule. I’ve said repeat­ed­ly I’m okay with the con­cept of a rape scene.

    I think you put too lit­tle faith in authors. Great authors of our era have always pushed bound­aries and exposed them­selves to crit­i­cism. They decide what crit­i­cism they will ignore and what they will heed. Maybe you have an argu­ment against oth­er peo­ple’s crit­i­cisms, but you have noth­ing here. I point­ed to an intel­li­gent and com­pas­sion­ate depic­tion of a sex­u­al assault, some­thing that the review­er you’ve tak­en to task specif­i­cal­ly approved of. The use of sex­u­al assault in fic­tion is in no way threat­ened by this crit­ic, nor by peo­ple who hold atti­tudes like hers with respect to these spe­cif­ic instances.

    As far as Ilya, I’m well aware that her death is sad­der because she’s blind and can’t rec­og­nize that she’s touch­ing a rock and not Berserk­er. I was speak­ing of Gil­gamesh’s choice to slash her eyes as sense­less. And Ilya’s help­less­ness there is anoth­er of those cheap and easy meth­ods to gen­er­ate an emo­tion­al response–sympathy, in this case, where Shin­ji assault­ing Rin was a cheap and easy way to gen­er­ate dis­dain for him. Both of these are brain­less emo­tion­al manip­u­la­tions with no intel­lec­tu­al or the­mat­ic back­ing behind them.

    Good day.

  18. So bril­liant.

    I’ve been an extreme­ly vocal Anti-ANN cru­sad­er for some time now (it com­pris­es most of my twit­ter feed these days). See­ing oth­er peo­ple wake up and smell the ash­es make me very happy.

    Gabriel­la Ekins is by far the worst cog in the ANN machine, which is real­ly say­ing something. 

    Keep spread­ing the good word. These peo­ple have poi­soned this com­mu­ni­ty for far too long.

  19. I’ve seen a lot of fake SJW posts and always thought that they were bla­tant straw­men. These peo­ple are far more dis­turb­ing when I see them in real life, however.

    Miko­to did a good job defend­ing the show. There’s some­thing about the SJW phi­los­o­phy that I want to address, though.

    Let’s take the most rea­son­able word­ing of the pro­gres­sive crit­ic’s argu­ment, that objec­tion­able themes that are not depict­ed with prop­er con­text and nuance must be crit­i­cized in light of their con­nec­tion to soci­ety. And there is some­thing deep­er about this argu­ment that dis­turbs me, even if I agree with a hypo­thet­i­cal pro­gres­sive crit­ic on the tech­ni­cal exe­cu­tion or nuance of a work. Words like “nuance”, “prop­er”, and even “crit­i­cism” are sub­jec­tive, and I do not want artists to be held to what turns out to be a sub­jec­tive, nar­row mind­ed viewpoint.

    The objec­tion raised was not to the depic­tion of rape itself, (hence why ANN crit­ic deemed Maria accept­able) but to, what I assume, the appar­ent­ly con­tra­dic­to­ry mes­sage that sex­u­al assault is bad com­bined with a sex­u­al­ly sug­ges­tive shot of the girl being tar­get­ed. Maria, hav­ing removed the sec­ond ele­ment, pass­es the pro­gres­sive fil­ter. And I will say no: both depic­tions are accept­able. Rape is ter­ri­ble, but it is unde­ni­ably sex­u­al in nature. It’s an evil action para­dox­i­cal­ly mixed with some­thing that was for­mer­ly enjoy­able. This para­dox caus­es frus­tra­tion at the illog­i­cal arrange­ment of the world. This frus­tra­tion is one of the rea­sons why peo­ple cre­ate art. Think of all of the vio­lent and grue­some movies out there, or works like Berserk and Blade of the Immor­tal. This style of depic­tion of rape is a cru­el, sim­ple thing. It has been over­done, and often done poor­ly. There is no nuance behind it, and the point was nev­er to be nuanced. This style does not say “rape is bad” like a tele­vi­sion PSA says “smok­ing is bad.” It is a mir­ror to the world, show­ing humans how depraved we are, and how cre­ative we can get about being evil. The fem­i­nist analy­sis of this depic­tion of rape ignores this interpretation.

    Crit­ics say they don’t want to “ban” any­thing. The argu­ment above stretched on only because it was ques­tion­able whether Rin’s sex­u­al assault was sup­posed to be “tit­il­la­tion” or not. Then what would these crit­ics think of rape dou­jins, that are explic­it­ly cre­at­ed as fap mate­r­i­al? I don’t read these works, and I doubt they are ever nuanced works of lit­er­a­ture, but I don’t say that peo­ple are sex­ist, or “reflect or con­tribute to sex­ist atti­tudes in soci­ety” for enjoy­ing them. We have the abil­i­ty to hold despi­ca­ble thoughts in our heads and remain good human beings. Art is the depic­tion and remix­ing of ideas, ideas that are often con­tra­dic­to­ry, and sub­ject to dif­fer­ent inter­pre­ta­tions. We should have the right to look at and expe­ri­ence these ideas sep­a­rate from our­selves and our actions. The vast vari­ety of art we have today relies on this prac­tice being respected.

    ANN crit­ic says that the Maria rape was inter­est­ing because it focused more of the effect on the vic­tim. I actu­al­ly agree; we should find dif­fer­ent ways of doing things in art, even though the choice of remov­ing the sex­u­al ele­ment from rape has been done before. The review­er, how­ev­er, also implies that this depic­tion was supe­ri­or not only because of a tech­ni­cal choice, but because it pre­served the dig­ni­ty of the female char­ac­ter. Yes, I’m sure that fic­tion­al female char­ac­ter, whom the all pow­er­ful writer god decid­ed would be raped, is very appre­cia­tive of her rape being off cam­era so the writer god’s col­leagues would­n’t acci­den­tal­ly be turned on to their voyeuris­tic male per­ver­sions. Why not go all the way? By this log­ic, the fic­tion­al female char­ac­ter’s dig­ni­ty would be fur­ther pre­served if noth­ing bad ever hap­pened to her at all. Art is some­times a very undig­ni­fied thing, not restrict­ed to a few san­i­tized forms. I would rather a lot of shit pieces of art come out than only a few accept­able types.

    The poster above says that Nasu “want­ed” to put cer­tain ele­ments inside his work. That’s an inter­est­ing choice of words. With­out direct­ly say­ing it, our poster can con­jure up the image of the artist sup­port­ing sex­u­al assault, then deny it when con­front­ed about it. Cul­tur­al crit­ics, and most crit­ics in gen­er­al, have got art back­wards. Most artists do not take iden­ti­fied crit­i­cal ele­ments and mix them up into a work. Artists are, of course, influ­enced by the world around them, the works of oth­er artists, and even ele­ments iden­ti­fied by pre­vi­ous crit­ics. Crit­ics can point out tech­ni­cal flaws, the­mat­ic incon­sis­ten­cies, or even moral objec­tions. But art always comes before the ele­ments the crit­ic iden­ti­fies. The crit­ic’s sub­jec­tive inter­pre­ta­tion is sub­or­di­nate to the art­work. To sug­gest that the artist is behold­en to these inter­pre­ta­tions is back­wards and insane.

    It fig­ures that the style of crit­i­cism that would become the most wide­spread is the kind that gives the crit­ic the most pow­er for the least amount of work. This style of cri­tique gives the crit­ic an unusu­al amount of moral author­i­ty over the artist. I’m tired of these fem­i­nist “Mad-Libs” style cri­tiques that preach to an author­i­ty out­side of the qual­i­ty and exe­cu­tion of a work of art, and who change their lan­guage when ques­tioned. Let’s rec­og­nize these peo­ple for who they are; not ambi­tious cen­sors, but moral­is­tic crit­ics with nar­row tastes and view­points, who are try­ing to become author­i­ties of art. These peo­ple will hope­ful­ly nev­er have the pow­er to mass-ban objec­tion­able mate­ri­als, and maybe they don’t even want to, like they often say. But it is their atti­tude towards art that I dis­agree with.

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